Beemer and Harley, contrast

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peterbulgar
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Post by peterbulgar »

So, would it be safe to assume that you believe that the Boxer design itself has reached, and perhaps gone past its sell-by-date?
The four-valve oil-head update of the traditional boxer twin was a gutsy move on BMW's part to keep the design competitive in the marketplace, but I think that it was the last hurrah. I expected the next iteration of the boxer to be water-cooled, but instead BMW increased the displacement and added more complexity in the form of balance shafts. Personally, I think that BMW should have refined the twin by decreasing the displacement slightly, adding water-cooling and giving up on chasing horsepower, but they didn't ask me. Without going into a long technical discussion I think that the good reasons for the traditional BMW configuration (air-cooled flat twin with shaft drive) are no longer relevant. Other designs are easier (and cheaper) to manufacture, more aerodynamic, and lend themselves to higher specific output. However, just as Harley-Davidson means an air-cooled, 45 degree V-Twin, so does BMW mean an air-cooled, flat-twin to many people. BMW has managed to keep the design competitive in a marketplace that demands ever increasing horsepower, but just barely.

As to the original focus of this thread - oil consumption - I suspect that normal manufacturing variations in valve-guide tolerances have a lot to do with why some engines consume more oil than others.
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Post by Brownw3 »

Geoff
I dunno about the dependability thing; the only way to find out if my Rockster will be to put 100,000 hard miles on it. I know I crashed the bike with 2000 miles on it ( a real horror show superslab crash, I'd be more than willing to provide cool pictures) and it just broke plastic parts, there wasn't even a scratch on the metal parts except a bent foot peg (BMW replaced the whole sub-frame because of the bent peg, too.) Tough enough for me, compadre.

I will never stop owning an airhead (and I do believe the engine life is indefinite because they've proven it to me.) but the modern bikes are sweet as candy and tougher than really mean nails.
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Post by Brownw3 »

Sorry just one thing. I put the Rockster down at 70MPH. In a worse case scenario, I could have ridden the bike to a hospital; it was still rideable. It maybe would have been more comfortable than the backboard they taped me to. :lol:
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Post by paroyboy »

Beemeridian wrote: As for Harley, they have made leaps and bounds from the dreaded AMF days but still have a reliability record that needs vast improvement. And they still leak!

Dave
OK, gotta defend my paycheck here..... :) to date I've owned a 2001 FXDXT, a 2002 FLHTC, a 2003 XB9R(Buell but still basically a Harley), a 2004 VRSCA, a 2005 XL1200C, and now a 2006 VRSCD. Not one of them has developed an oil leak. We put about 5000 miles on each of them before I traded them back in on something else. (I get a discount once a year) I never had to add oil to any of them. Even the V-Rods which are known to eat a little oil till theyre broke in. Also, according to warranty claim data, we arent too far below Honda anymore. OK, thats all for my public service announcement!
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Post by holleywood »

I've had my YJ for 4 years now. Here's the deal. Nikasil or not, a boxer motor WILL burn oil. Here's why: the sidestand. If you leave a boxer on the sidestand, oil will eventually get past the left piston into the head. As such, it burns that oil. The boxer design also lends itself to this if the centerstand is used and the oil is overfilled. That being said, at 18,000 + miles, I'm not even going through 1/4 of a quart in 3k miles. I was told by my salesman upon purchase to break it in hard! He clarified that for me. Below 3000 rpms is BAAAD. If you can rev it higher and vary the engine speed, then glazing will not occur to the detriment of the machine. 140 kms at steady speed is not causing any of the above to occur. It is a steady rpm and is not extreme in any fashion unless the transmission is being used to vary rpm. Just my .02. And what little common sense I got.
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Post by sjbmw »

paroyboy wrote:
Beemeridian wrote: As for Harley, they have made leaps and bounds from the dreaded AMF days but still have a reliability record that needs vast improvement. And they still leak!

Dave
OK, gotta defend my paycheck here..... :) to date I've owned a 2001 FXDXT, a 2002 FLHTC, a 2003 XB9R(Buell but still basically a Harley), a 2004 VRSCA, a 2005 XL1200C, and now a 2006 VRSCD. Not one of them has developed an oil leak. We put about 5000 miles on each of them before I traded them back in on something else. (I get a discount once a year) I never had to add oil to any of them. Even the V-Rods which are known to eat a little oil till theyre broke in. Also, according to warranty claim data, we arent too far below Honda anymore. OK, thats all for my public service announcement!
Anyone ever seen a HD with 100k miles on the odometer? I haven't.
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Post by chris »

sjbmw wrote: Anyone ever seen a HD with 100k miles on the odometer? I haven't.
You have to ride in the rain to get to that sort of mileage and none of the guys I know with a Harley will come out to play unless there's a three day guarantee of 0% moisture in the air... :)

PS Dwayne...silver...silver...repeat after me...silver...silver...got it? :wink:
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Post by jfbarron »

Thanks for the electrical problem heads up, Dwayne. Sorry to hear about it!

It would seem that Harley Davidson has made substantial inroads lately. In North Sydney, Nova Scotia, I had the pleasure of sharing a few Scotches at the hotel with a rider from California who regularly runs his HD machines up to 85K miles. This guy is a retired fireman and he was riding a Touring rig back from Newfoundland to continue all across Canada and then back to California. Apparently, the newer bikes are very reliable and the service is quite good, especially to riders on the road trips.

Hats off to the guy! That is not just posing or sunny day stuff.
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Post by chris »

jfbarron wrote: Hats off to the guy! That is not just posing or sunny day stuff.
Hats off indeed! Always two sides to a coin eh? :)
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Post by DG02 »

What's the difference between a Harley rider and a BMW rider when looking at each other's bikes?

Harley rider looks at the BMW exhaust pipes and comments they aren't shiny.

BMW rider looks at the Harley odometer and says "That all the miles you got on it?"

Butt jewellery vs. Iron Butt. They appeal to riders with different goals in mind.
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Post by riceburner »

peterbulgar wrote:
Without going into a long technical discussion I think that the good reasons for the traditional BMW configuration (air-cooled flat twin with shaft drive) are no longer relevant. Other designs are easier (and cheaper) to manufacture, more aerodynamic, and lend themselves to higher specific output.
The other way to look at that argument is "what do you actually need when out riding?"

150 bhp chiming in 15000 revs?

or 70lbft of torque at 3000 revs?


That question, and your answer to it, will define what you ride. :)
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Post by challey »

There are always exceptions to the rule. I have a friend with a Road King who thinks nothing of jumping on his bike for a 1,000 mile ride. This guy recently rode to Montreal & back from suburban Phila for a buisiness conference even though his employer would have paid for him to fly. He's got about 75k on the Road King's clock.
Of course I have 2 other friends who ride V-twins who fit the profile. One has about 2k on his 3 year old Fat Boy, the other less than 1,000 on a 2 year old Duce. Both recently backed out of planned weekend ride of about 500 miles because the weather forecast called for a 40% chance of rain on day one and 30% for the next 2 days. Neither one has rain gear, so I guess you really can't blame them but it is beyond me how anyone who rides can't have wet weather equipt.
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Post by dragonmojo »

riceburner wrote:
peterbulgar wrote:
Without going into a long technical discussion I think that the good reasons for the traditional BMW configuration (air-cooled flat twin with shaft drive) are no longer relevant. Other designs are easier (and cheaper) to manufacture, more aerodynamic, and lend themselves to higher specific output.
The other way to look at that argument is "what do you actually need when out riding?"

150 bhp chiming in 15000 revs?

or 70lbft of torque at 3000 revs?


That question, and your answer to it, will define what you ride. :)

I just put in about 350 miles today (Street Vibrations weekend up in the Reno/Lake Tahoe area, but to avoid the really dense and rowdy crowd, I made it to Carson City, NV instead). On Hwy4 coming home, all full of nice, tight, one-and-a-half lane twisties with the Sierras hinting of the early yellows of autumn, I got my Rockster working through the chicanes. I was having a blast between 40mph and 70mph (remember, these are tight twisties) and had no opportunity to stir the horses. My tach was hitting between 4 and 5K however, squirting me out of those corners with aplomb. A bit of trail-braking, engine braking, proper shifting and rolling the throttle off/on provided miles of smiles. For the type of riding I enjoy, gimme torque!

Not so pleasant was being stuck behind a heavy-duty 4x4 towing a trailer full of ATVs for a good part of those twisties.
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Post by GeoffJ »

chris wrote:
sjbmw wrote: Anyone ever seen a HD with 100k miles on the odometer? I haven't.
I've seen just as many Harley's with 100k miles as BMW's.
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Post by GeoffJ »

Brownw3 wrote:Geoff
I dunno about the dependability thing; the only way to find out if my Rockster will be to put 100,000 hard miles on it. I know I crashed the bike with 2000 miles on it ( a real horror show superslab crash, I'd be more than willing to provide cool pictures) and it just broke plastic parts, there wasn't even a scratch on the metal parts except a bent foot peg (BMW replaced the whole sub-frame because of the bent peg, too.) Tough enough for me, compadre.

I will never stop owning an airhead (and I do believe the engine life is indefinite because they've proven it to me.) but the modern bikes are sweet as candy and tougher than really mean nails.
Crash tests aside, the reliability of today's BMW's is questionable because there are far more people complaining about warranty issues now than when I began riding the bikes in '79.

Perhaps the worst example was the scathing letter one frustrated owner posted on BMW's web site a couple years ago. The rear drive failed on his LT during an Iron Butt event. BMW wouldn't honor the claim under warranty. In order to get home, the guy traded in his BMW and bought a new Gold Wing.

I sold an '02 K1200RS a couple years ago. I liked the bike, but was fed up with the ongoing recall issues. Also, the bike developed an oil leak at the timing cover with only 6k miles. Worst of all, I was once left stranded at roadside when a gas tank fuel line fitting broke.

I like BMW's, but the quality isn't as good as it used to be. And while it's a subjective call, the styling has waned, too.
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Post by Brownw3 »

I really think the only difference in BMW reliability is the internet. "I know this guy that was at band camp and the rear wheel on his GSA came off..."
Now personally, I have yet to see a Motor Company bike with 100,000 miles on an original frame or drivetrain in it but I rode 150,000 miles on my first oilhead without any major adjustments and all my airheads made it over 100,000 (All my airheads were used.)

If they made an airplane, I'd fly in it. If they made a car, I'd put my family in it (and I do.) Personal experience is my guiding light. I've never failed to stop for a crippled motorcyclist and on my last road trip pulled over for another Motor Company bike. From my personal experience; BMW failures are very rare because I don't see them on the side of the road around here.

Once you use a bike in competition, your warranty is void. I don't think its any coincidence that over half of all IronButt finishers are riding BMW's, though.
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Post by peterbulgar »

I don't think its any coincidence that over half of all IronButt finishers are riding BMW's, though.
No coincidence at all - I think that about half of the entrants were on BMWs. There was a flurry of posts about the Iron Butt after the finish last year in which the results were analysed from many different perspectives. Without rehashing the whole thread, the end result was that BMWs in the Iron Butt were about average or slightly better in reliability compared to bikes of other manufacturers. A couple of the BMW DNFs were of the rare and infrequent massive driveline failure category, a coincidence I'm sure. BMWs are not unreliable bikes, but I don't think they are head and shoulders above everyone else in that category like they used to be. Other manufacturers have improved, and BMW has well, stayed the same at best.

IMHO reliability should not be an issue in the 21st century, however manufacturers' focus on ever increasing horsepower and performance is what keeps modern bikes from all lasting 200k miles.
Without going into a long technical discussion I think that the good reasons for the traditional BMW configuration (air-cooled flat twin with shaft drive) are no longer relevant. Other designs are easier (and cheaper) to manufacture, more aerodynamic, and lend themselves to higher specific output.
I should have clarified my above statement. The marketplace seems to demand horsepower and 160 mph top speeds. I would love to see BMW go to 70/70 - 70 foot/pounds of torque and 70 rear wheel horsepower in an air/oil cooled twin of 1100 cc or so. The detuned and unstressed engine would last forever, wouldn't need balance shafts to be smooth, and then BMW could concentrate on making the driveline bulletproof as well. I'd buy a bike like that, and maybe a few others from this forum would as well. However, the popular cycle magazines wouldn't be impressed by the 1/4 mile times or the top end, and I doubt that sales of such a bike would be that great.

BMW wants to see sales and profits increase, and they've probably learned that a conservative and sensible product with decent performance isn't the path to big sales, hence the ever increasing power output. As far as the flat twin configuration goes, I suspect that the oilhead engine costs BMW more to make than the new four-cylinder engine with half again as much power.
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Post by NoRRmad »

peterbulgar wrote: The marketplace seems to demand horsepower and 160 mph top speeds. I would love to see BMW go to 70/70 - 70 foot/pounds of torque and 70 rear wheel horsepower in an air/oil cooled twin of 1100 cc or so. The detuned and unstressed engine would last forever, wouldn't need balance shafts to be smooth, and then BMW could concentrate on making the driveline bulletproof as well. I'd buy a bike like that, and maybe a few others from this forum would as well.
YES! :smt023
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Post by dragonmojo »

GeoffJ wrote:
chris wrote:
sjbmw wrote: Anyone ever seen a HD with 100k miles on the odometer? I haven't.
I've seen just as many Harley's with 100k miles as BMW's.
That was probably 10000 miles... that last digit was for tenths :wink: .
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Post by ebiker »

GeoffJ wrote:
chris wrote:
sjbmw wrote: Anyone ever seen a HD with 100k miles on the odometer? I haven't.
I've seen just as many Harley's with 100k miles as BMW's.
At Sturgis this year, I saw several Harley's with ODO mileage near 100,000. "Baggers" ridden long distance to every major HD event.

I saw a four year old Road Glide with 89,000 miles last weekend. Owner reported a broken drive belt, speed sensor and defective radio as only problems during ownership. And during our 500 mile ride thru south central Arizona on Sunday, noticed there were four times as many Harley's being ridden for every metric motorcycle we saw.

The high mileage Harley's are out there. Those of us in our smug little world just don't look for them.
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