Beemer and Harley, contrast

[dwayne]

I've often heard people joke about the problems with Harleys:"they burn oil", "they breakdown", "poorly engineered", "an old tired design" and other unflattering comments. After owning a Beemer, owning a few different brands of bike, and knowing many that own Harleys, I can offer advise to the potential Beemer owner: If you are thinking of making the Beemer plunge, you need to understand what you are getting into. Whenever you hear the anti-Harley comments, replace the Harley-Davidson name with BMW Beemer and you will have a good idea of what BMW ownership is like. Beemers do breakdown; I’ve had several bikes, all new, or very low Km’s, and the Beemer, also new, is the only bike I have ever had to have towed to a dealership. Beemer’s burn oil, though many will tell you that any reciprocating motor burns oil, burning oil at the rate of a liter per 1000Km's is alarmingly high. I, and many others that have owned or own other brands can and will tell you that having to add oil between oil changes is rare.
What I want to know is how did BMW manage to stay in the business of motorcycles as long as they have? Burning oil at a rate that BMW says is normal is absolutely absurd.

What is the point of ever changing the oil? With burning or consuming oil at the rate of a liter per 1000Km: the bike practically changes oil for you. I mean if you can get away with just changing the filter without draining the oil, you’d be far further ahead.

BMW’s are appointed well, with good ergonomics, however having to trade ergo’s for poor engineering on the part of the motor is not something I would have taken as acceptable from any other brand. I guess I’m just PO’d that I fell for the BMW hype, and hype is all it is I’m afraid. If Honda built a bike that burned oil as badly as the Beemers, they wouldn’t be in the bike business. Simply burning oil isn’t the only problem, the silly oil checking regime: here’s a novel idea: make the oil window site glass a little higher or little lower, or make it standard practice to inspect the oil level when bike is cold on the side stand or center stand?. I know there will be those with the, “My Beemer never breaks down”, or “Maybe you just don’t know how to take care of it”. Or my favorite: "BMW puts a coating on the cylinder walls that make it harder to break in". Really? Cause Suzuki also has speecial treatment on their bikes, yet they don't burn oil? All the Jap bikes I have owned where air, or air and oil cooled, and they didn't burn oil either. Though some will have good arguments, I’ve owned SEVERAL cars, and motorcycles and other then a Ford Explorer I owned, also new, I’ve never owned a machine that demanded so much attention. Trust me, if I was in a position to offload the Beemer, it would already be gone and I wouldn’t be here.

Though I do like the bike, other then the aforementioned faults, this will be my last BMW motorcycle. I just can’t believe I was dumb enough to fall for the hype. Fool me once, BMW, shame on me.

[riceburner]

I've often heard people joke about the problems with Harleys:"they burn oil", "they breakdown", "poorly engineered", "an old tired design" and other unflattering comments. After owning a Beemer, owning a few different brands of bike, and knowing many that own Harleys, I can offer advise to the potential Beemer owner: If you are thinking of making the Beemer plunge, you need to understand what you are getting into. Whenever you hear the anti-Harley comments, replace the Harley-Davidson name with BMW Beemer and you will have a good idea of what BMW ownership is like. Beemers do breakdown; I’ve had several bikes, all new, or very low Km’s, and the Beemer, also new, is the only bike I have ever had to have towed to a dealership. Beemer’s burn oil, though many will tell you that any reciprocating motor burns oil, burning oil at the rate of a liter per 1000Km's is alarmingly high. I, and many others that have owned or own other brands can and will tell you that having to add oil between oil changes is rare.
What I want to know is how did BMW manage to stay in the business of motorcycles as long as they have? Burning oil at a rate that BMW says is normal is absolutely absurd.

What is the point of ever changing the oil? With burning or consuming oil at the rate of a liter per 1000Km: the bike practically changes oil for you. I mean if you can get away with just changing the filter without draining the oil, you’d be far further ahead.

BMW’s are appointed well, with good ergonomics, however having to trade ergo’s for poor engineering on the part of the motor is not something I would have taken as acceptable from any other brand. I guess I’m just PO’d that I fell for the BMW hype, and hype is all it is I’m afraid. If Honda built a bike that burned oil as badly as the Beemers, they wouldn’t be in the bike business. Simply burning oil isn’t the only problem, the silly oil checking regime: here’s a novel idea: make the oil window site glass a little higher or little lower, or make it standard practice to inspect the oil level when bike is cold on the side stand or center stand?. I know there will be those with the, “My Beemer never breaks down”, or “Maybe you just don’t know how to take care of it”. Good arguments, but I’ve owned SEVERAL cars, and motorcycles and other then a Ford Explorer I owned, also new, I’ve never owned a machine that demanded so much attention. Trust me, if I was in a position to offload the Beemer, it would already be gone and I wouldn’t be here.

Though I do like the bike, other then the aforementioned faults, this will be my last BMW motorcycle. I just can’t believe I was dumb enough to fall for the hype. Fool me once, BMW, shame on me.

The BMW engines burn oil because they have a "Nikasil" coating over the cylinder bores. This is a measure that makes the bore surfaces VERY hard, much harder than the normal bores on most bikes. As a result the piston ring/bore surface interface doesn't "bed in" for several thousand miles (as in 10-20,000), whereas on a non-Nikasil lined bore this will take only a few thousand miles.

THAT is why they burn oil, because there isn't an oil seal down the side of the pistons until this bedding in process is completed.

The upside of the Nikasil bore though, is that in 100,000 or 200,000 miles, the bore will STILL be in good nick and giving a decent seal. Any other bike with mileage like that will have had at least one or two re-bores to recreate that oil seal.

Of course if your BMW engine isn't run in properly (ie, quite hard), it's very easy to "Glaze" the bore, ie create a polished surface, which means that there isn't an oil-tight seal and the bike will continue to burn oil. This is why it's best to be quite firm with your bike when running in, and not pussyfoot it.


Oh, and BTW, some other bikes DO burn a lot of oil, Yamaha 5-valve heads are notorious for burning oil (it's because the way they are designed, I'm not quite sure what the exact problem is, but ALL 5-valve Yamaha bike engines do it, TDMs, R1, FZRs etc - it's a known issue). They have been known to burn up to 1 litre in 1000 miles in bad cases.





(I should have read the entirety of your post before writing my own, apologies. )

BTW - the reason you need to wait 5 mins for the oil to settle and check it hot is because of the oil up in the oil-cooler. You have to wait for that to pour down back into the sump before you can get a true reading. Incidentally, be thankful you're not riding an Aprilia, with it's dry-sump engine you have to go through an even longer rigmarole to check the oil level because it has to be hot, and pumped back into the oil-resevoir before you can check it. (the new K1200 engine is also dry sump and requires a similar regime, as do ALL dry sump engines.) other manufactuers don't have issues like this because either they don't use an oil-cooler, or they place the oil cooler a LOT closer to the engine sump, thus tending to make them vulnerable to stone-chipping (see ZXR400, Ducati 750SSs for example).

As for the "poor engineering" comment, think on this : BMW manage to make 1 engine (eg the R1100, R1150, or Hexhead engines) perform, and perform well, over a wide range of applications, virtually all the applications available in motorcycling. There's not many other manufacturers who can make that claim. With merely a couple of tweaks (ignition map and some gearing) the R1200 engine is serving as an off-roader, a mile munching tourer, a sporty tourer, a classic bimbling around machine, AND a track weapon. For one engine to do all that with only minor tweaks is quite something.

[dwayne]

... They have been known to burn up to 1 litre in 1000 miles in bad cases.

That BAD case, is BMW's norm. Besides, how many people are really going to put 200,000 Km's on a bike? Sure theres a list, but really how many will actually do it, vs. those that own BMW's? This is more of BMW trying to create excuses for poor engineering.

[ekiM]

It's "fool me once shame on YOU (or BMW), fool me twice, shame on ME."
Just so's you know. Good luck with your next bike, and be safe.
Mike

[riceburner]

To be honest Dwayne, ALL of this information has been WELL known for several years.
To be whinging about it now, after your purchase is a bit like locking the stable doors after the horses have bolted.

I think you failed to do your research and now feel a bit dumb.

[riceburner]

... They have been known to burn up to 1 litre in 1000 miles in bad cases.

That BAD case, is BMW's norm. Besides, how many people are really going to put 200,000 Km's on a bike? Sure theres a list, but really how many will actually do it, vs. those that own BMW's? This is more of BMW trying to create excuses for poor engineering.

Actually I doubt it IS the norm - I'm pretty sure my Rocksters didn't burn oil at that rate. More like 1 litre in about 8000 miles I think.

I did 42,000 on the 2nd one and yes I had to top it up occasionally, I kept a special 4 litre can for the job and IIRC I was about a 3rd of the way through the 2nd can when it was written off in an accident. so that's..... 5.5litres (roughly) in 42,000 miles (from new)= 7636.36 miles per litre of oil.

I'd say that your bike desperatly needs a DAMNED GOOD THRASH!!!

[dwayne]

...I'd say that your bike desperatly needs a DAMNED GOOD THRASH!!!

But what makes a "Good Thrashing"? I ride 110Km's per day, mostly at speeds AROUND 140 km/hr. Isn't that thrashing? I'm not trying to make people defence about the bikes, I have not met a single person on this forum that I don't like, just spilling the beans about something that really, really annoyes me.

[Beemeridian]

78

[chris]

All bikes, all machines have their faults and idiosyncrasies. Some you love some you hate. If the balance tips towards hate it's time for a change.

[sjbmw]

...I'd say that your bike desperatly needs a DAMNED GOOD THRASH!!!

But what makes a "Good Thrashing"? I ride 110Km's per day, mostly at speeds AROUND 140 km/hr. Isn't that thrashing? I'm not trying to make people defence about the bikes, I have not met a single person on this forum that I don't like, just spilling the beans about something that really, really annoyes me.

When I bought my 04 R in august 2003, I asked about "break-in" as it was my third new bike purchase, and there are always break in procedures. At least I thought.

Dealer and mechanic told me do not baby the bike. Don't beat it, but use the entire powerband evenly. They were not talking about high speed, but to use all the tick marks on the tachometer evenly. Including the fun zone over 5500 rpm.

My bike did drink oil before 7-9k miles.
At 14k it's settled down to about a third of quart for a riding season.

Old school boxer guy I meet at a rally told me I was given good advice, and at about 20k, if I continue the procedures, oil loss will stop completely.

If this is the trade I make for the suspension and brakes I got, so be it.

[paroyboy]

Man, someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning! My 04 R with 8000 miles on it has used about 1/2 quart of oil in the last 2500 miles. From what I read on here, I expect it will continue for at least another 2000 miles. No biggie, I can live with that. As for the BMW hype, I can agree with you to some degree. I guess in the back of my mind I expected the BMW to be some mythical beast that was perfect in every way. Well, maybe not THAT good but I did expect it to be better than most., I can say that it's no better or worse than most bikes I've owned. Its just different. Will I buy another, probably not. I was bitten by the Guzzi bug a few years ago and I'm sure that will be my next bike. Until then though, I really enjoy riding the R and plan on putting alot more miles on it before I trade it. Luckily, BMW's hold value better than most.

[rdsmith3]

The BMW engines burn oil because they have a "Nikasil" coating over the cylinder bores. This is a measure that makes the bore surfaces VERY hard, much harder than the normal bores on most bikes. As a result the piston ring/bore surface interface doesn't "bed in" for several thousand miles (as in 10-20,000), whereas on a non-Nikasil lined bore this will take only a few thousand miles.

But other engines use Nikasil without excessive oil burning. In fact, air/oil cooled Porsche boxer engines have had it for years. Wikipeida says, "Nikasil coated aluminum cylinders allowed Porsche to build air-cooled engines that had the highest specific output of any engine of their time."

And, based on my own experience, those engines do not burn much oil.

[jfbarron]

Hi Dwayne,

Sorry to hear that your new bike isn't meeting your expectations. I am curious about why you had to have your new bike towed to the dealership and what the problem was. Any comments on how the issue was resolved?

I have to admit that I dislike the oil checking procedures and the sometimes false readings that it gives. A recent thrash from Mississauga to Drummondville led me to believe that the bike had eaten up lots of oil. So I put half a litre in and ended up overfilling it, leading to weeping around the filler cap. The next 4000 km was a great ride, but the weeping stopped near the end. I miss the simplicity of the R75/5 dipstick method.

I sold my R75 after 30 years of ownership, for more than I paid for it.


Perhaps many of the riders on this site are in the same position as myself. I have ridden lots of other makes of bikes but owned only BMW since 1976. My experiences with other makes and their unreliable tendencies led me to buy what was the only real touring alternative open to me at the time- a BMW. I sold it after 30 years of ownership for more than I paid for it.

Yes, there were Harley Davidsons, Honda Gold Wings, and big Kawasakis out there too, but they handled badly and were overly complicated with chains or liquid cooling.

I am still curious about what went wrong on your bike. Did you get it resolved at Open Road?

[R4R&R]

I've owned a few "Jap" bikes, and they too have burned oil, not all but some have so it's not a BMW only thing. I think the rule of thumb on oil burning is pretty much a quart/1000 miles is the norm - even in cars.

[The Velvet Monkey]

There is no doubt in my mind that BMW motorcycles aren't for everyone. Also, that these motorcycles require what I'd call "a little more love" than, say, a Japanese motorbike. In addition to my R, I also own a Kawasaki ZRX 1200. Its a wonderful bike and I've never been required to add a singel drop of oil between oil changes, but, although it performs perfectly and is water-cooled and has more horsepower, I still invariably prefer to ride my R. To me, it's got sooooo much more character and gives me sooooooo much more joy when I ride it. And I've not had a single mechanical problem for its 17k miles--it has schlepped my fat ass across country twice.

In short, if you don't get that "value added" from the quirky character aspects of a certain make, whether Harley, BMW, Ducati, Guzzi, etc., you should certainly stick with the Japanese manufacturers. They'll perform perfectly, require almost no attention. To many, however, they lack that something--something that makes the extra ownership efforts worthwhile.

My advice, dump your BMW and get what'll make you happy. Like to short to ride a motorbike to don't love. Hope you find it.

[Silverr]

I happen to agree. The boxer oil burning is excessive. My bike burned a full quart every 1000 miles thru 12k. At that rate, oil changes are not necessary. I also had 2 new engines in two years. I all started with odd noises and vibration coming from the engine. Every time, I would get the "thats normal, they all do that" explanation. After pushing it further, dealer would investigage and tell me the good news.. I need a new engine and I was also told that this is happening to others with the twin spark and they had 12 engines in the back with the same issue needing to be sent back to BMW. I am not sure of the exact problem and not even the dealers really knew why. They suspected something with the casting.. Anyway, I am a fan of BMW and still own one today... However, I will never own a flat twin again. It just does not make sense to me. In the BMW line, the new 4 cyl are superior in every way, in my opinion.

Dwayne, go test ride a new K12R. It will make you a beemer believer again. Its what I would have expected from BMW. I am a happy camper now thanks to my dealer making me an awesome deal and taking the RR off my hands!

[yjleesvrr]

Maybe I'm more careless, but all I do to check the oil is to look at the sight glass when it's cold, when it's hot, or somewhere in between. As long as I have it on reasonably level terrain and on the sidestand, my oil reading hardly changes at all regardless of temp.

I go on 2000 mile trips without thinking about the oil level. All I know is that at the end of the trip, my engine doesn't require me to add any oil.

I let the dealer do the regular maintenance. I just add gas and go.

Over 39k miles and four years of ownership, I find that my Roadster has been as easy to own as my Suzuki and Harley.

My experience thus far has been that the BMW isn't any more of a pain to own than any other. Sure the valve adjustment interval is short. But compared to my Suzuki I don't have to worry about a chain to lube and adjust. Sure my Harley Dyna Glide Sport has self-adjusting valves and a belt drive that hardly ever needs adjusting. But I won't take it off road with complete confidence the way I can with my Roadster because I'm afraid that a rock may get lodged between the belt and cogs and destroy/damage the belt.

The way I see it, the Beemer has its own set of quirks, but none that make the ownership experience any worse than the others.

[priapismic]

When I first saw the topic of this thread, I though it would the re-relling of a joke I saw posted on another forum a while back:

Seems there was a charity ride, with lots of different brands being ridden. At the end, some of the guys were using the men's room. A Harley rider stopped to wash his hands afterwards, while a BMW rider strolled on by past the sinks towards the door. The Harley rider sniffs and says, "Hunh. That's the difference between BMW and Harley riders - the Harley riders at least wash their hands after using the restroom". To which the BMW rider turns and says, "No, the difference is that BMW riders don't piss on their hands."

[Brownw3]

Dwayne;

I think you should have whatever kind of bike makes you happy. I will have to say that I'm on my fourth and fifth BMW now and I've never been more pleased with the engineering on a machine than the ones I ride. I've never been stranded by a Beemer (stuff has broken but not left me stranded) on any of the three airheads or the oilheads I've owned

I must honestly say that you are the first person I've ever heard in the motorcycle world, ever that claims the Beemer is not well engineered. As a matter of fact, the unbelievably stout engineering on the bike is part of the source of your unhappiness, case in point:

"Beemer’s burn oil, though many will tell you that any reciprocating motor burns oil, burning oil at the rate of a liter per 1000Km's is alarmingly high. I, and many others that have owned or own other brands can and will tell you that having to add oil between oil changes is rare.
What I want to know is how did BMW manage to stay in the business of motorcycles as long as they have? Burning oil at a rate that BMW says is normal is absolutely absurd."

Yep, they burn oil and vibrate like crazy until about 30,000 miles and then it stops. These engines are designed to last indefinitely (I put 150,000 miles on my last oilhead without any expensive repairs) If you didn't buy your BMW as a long haul, 100K+ miles bike, you probably aren't going to be happy with it. We ride them for a long time and we ride them harshly sometimes. It is where the engineering superiority of BMW surpasses all others. Once again, if you didn't plan on keeping it that long and enjoying that benefit, I think you're not going to be a happy camper.

One troubling trend I have noticed with the surge in motorcycle buying is mis-marketing of features and benefits. I see a lot of Beemers for sale with 20,000 miles on them, in other words bikes being sold before they're even ready to ride best. It comes from dealers selling the wrong bike to the wrong person. If this happened to you, I'm sorry. Someone should have told you about the quirky nature of these machines; but make no mistake, I trust their engineering more than I do any other consumer product, including the Pepsi I had at lunch.


“My Beemer never breaks down”, or “Maybe you just don’t know how to take care of it”. Or my favorite: "BMW puts a coating on the cylinder walls that make it harder to break in".

Well, nope, its not a coating its a very expensive cylinder wall and you'd be hard pressed to hurt it. I love Motor Company bikes and ride them but the engineering flaws of the 45 degree twin are too numerous to list here. Meanwhile, the boxer is only upgraded when a real improvement is found, yet their reputation for longevity is well earned. My 32 year old Airhead runs cleaner and easier than any new Motor Company bike. With a simple set of tools I would ride it to Venezuala tomorrow.

The BMW boxer mill is the hands down dependability king for all time. Current oilhead engines are not only considered to be the most durable machines in motorcycle world but BMW Motorrad suspensions, engines and electrics win engineering competitions outside the industry. Take some time and compare the real world combination of handling, everyday usable power, dependability, suspension and safety. Objectively, it would be difficult to argue there is a finer engineered piece of machinery.

Dwayne, I certainly agree with you, if you did not buy your bike to put 200,000k on it, then you were indeed robbed. But the BMW community, in general, are high mileage, single machine owners. I have put over 100,000 miles on two different BMWs and all my BMW's (including my current airhead) rolled well over 100,000 miles while in my care. I've never been put out of my budget by a repair and I am not a wealthy man.

Lastly let's do a comparison; I found a bargain on my new Rockster and for $10,000 obtained:
A. AN 85HP mill capable of astounding feats (round the world riding, etc) I have to pour oil in it, notice none of it leaks out.
B. The best engineered luggage system in the universe, forget motorcycles
C. ABS
D. Better than most sportbike handling out of a big bike.
E. THree years worth of courteous and unquestioning warranty service
F. Heated grips, changed handlebars, tank bag, unequalled standard ergonomics.
G. Time proven, darn near indestructible shaft drive
H. Not the same bike everyone else in the US rides (that alone makes it worth a premium to me :D )

All objective, think honestly, I'll bet you heated grips, new handlebars and a tankbag at a Motor Company dealership would cost you $1500 parts and labor. Quite honestly, I don't see where the comparison would even start. Considering one of their decent bikes starts naked at about $15,000.

[dwayne]

My bike did drink oil before 7-9k miles.
At 14k it's settled down to about a third of quart for a riding season.

Now that is reasonable. However what gets my goat is on the BMW site it lists i liter per 1000Km's as exceptable. I disagree. Honestly, would you buy a car today that would eat 1/2 liter of oil per cyclinder every 1000Km's? I mean, I like the M1A1 Abrahms to, but I don't want my car or bike to burn oil like a MB Tank.