BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers want

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BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers want

Post by websterize »

I culled questions from this thread and sent them to Mr. Robb, BMW Group’s vice president of motorcycle design. He responded to some of them today:

Question: Although it has a new engine, the design of the 2011 R1200R seems more refinement than redesign. (Beefier forks, sculptural bars and rear grab handles, etc.) Tell us about the thinking behind the design changes?

The R 1200 R model you mentioned is what we internally refer to as a "facelift". A limited number of details have been improved, resulting from customer input or with a technical background in mind, which have led to a significantly improved rider experience and product. In the case of the R 1200 R, it is already seen as a very well rounded motorcycle, and has been very well received. The fine tuning you are referring to is just that.

There are apparent design changes, but what about the subtle? What would an experienced R12R rider be surprised to learn about the 2011 R1200R and R1200R Classic?

With an already pleasing all around appearance and visual balance, the changes were not needed to "fix things", but really aimed at getting things "almost perfect". The headlight and instrumentation area, as functional as they are, now appear slightly tall and almost too cool and rational, when looked at with critical eyes. If you compare the previous and new models to each other from a side view, you will notice that the architecture of the new components creates a more tucked in, closer to the body, more compact gesture, the body language, more aggressive, while still having a classic feel to it.

The different elements you already mentioned, lead to a subtle, but perceivable improvement; headlight, instruments, exhaust pipe, seat, passenger grips, etc..

One of the most obvious changes is the redesigned instrumentation? Why was that changed?

The dual instrumentation unit contains more product content leading to positive customer perception, and fits nicely into the product as a whole. Even the new headlight mount adds a dynamic forward lean to the collection of individual components.

Let's look at two of your questions next to each other:

Seats and windshields - they are probably the most-discussed components on the r1200r.org forum. It is a rare forum member who says her wind shield and bike seat are a perfect fit from the factory. How does Motorrad test seats and wind shields?

and

"Why so big? If you look at a R12R next to a 1980's R65, it's huge. Can't you make it smaller? What about a entry level boxer - a stripped down R800R?

The nostalgic view of "good old bikes", how small and "perfect" they were, and “why aren't bikes made like that anymore?“, is always amusing to me. Whether it is an R65, or a bike going back into the 40's, or even our first model in 1923, we love the romance of something that they seemed so “tiny“. Especially by today's standards. From today's perspective, they indeed seem "reduced to the max". In reality, in their day, they were big, powerful bikes with brand new engineering solutions. Interestingly, we forget that BMWs have always been innovative, packed with “cutting edge“, very often ahead of their time. When we think of these "pure, small, BMW's painted in classic black", we forget that they were actually loaded with more innovations than most of their competitors, quicker and more high-tech. (The colored lacquers required more time to dry, were tricky to do, maybe too fashionable (?), black being simply a more practical and accepted color. It had nothing to do with being classical, rather, with production efficiency and business savvy).

As great as those bikes were for their time, even "modern bikes of the 80's would shock us if we rode them today, certainly if trying to fulfill today's customer's expectations. Even the R65 is over 30 years old. A lot has happened since then :-)

Today's motorcycles’ acceleration and deceleration performance, suspension qualities, agility, lean angles, along with functionality, ease of use, aerodynamics and weather protection, as well as safety, emissions and environmental product considerations are dramatically different than yesterday’s. If we think that an R65 got even close to fulfilling today’s product requirements and customer expectations, we would be far off the mark, would miss the target by a long shot.

While you are asking about making the R 1200 R smaller, it is actually in stark contrast to what most customers are actually asking for, and paying good money to get. And that leads to your next point. Rather than stripping down their bikes, they are asking for much more content than an R65 could ever offer. More comfort, more weather protection, more storage capacity, more fuel capacity or driving range, etc., even safety features, are clearly at the top of the wish lists. That all of these features can be added without increased size is of course impossible, and a fact of life customers accept and invest in. We put great effort into keeping new components light and compact and highly efficient, (our ABS unit 2.5 kilos, our best competitors is at 10 kilos), but more often than not, comparisons seem to be done, apples to oranges.

So while today’s compact R 1200 R is available, a majority of customers are looking to customize their bikes with features that add functionality, in spite of increased mass or volume. That seems not to be a concern. Quite the opposite, they expect that flexibility of choice.

Engineering and building massed produced products of any kind is always a challenge. When looking at the diverse customers we hope to entice into buying a BMW Motorrad, it can only be obvious from the outset, that one size cannot fit all. More than any manufacturer I can think of, we put an effort into trying to cover as much of the ergonomic envelope as possible. Beyond adjustable windscreens, we offer many models with adjustable handlebars, seat heights, and peg positions. This package flexibility cannot be offered on all models, so those with more limited adjustability are optimized for an “average rider“, not able to cover as large a range as those that do.

Product development testing is a large part of our process, whether wind tunnel testing, seating comfort, noise levels, or anything that pertains to the customer experience. The responsible engineer does not fulfill his personal requirements, but those in the product briefing description, including a range of riders. That means that larger and smaller riders, male and female riders, as well as those of us that don’t have “standard proportions“ :-), long torsos or long legs for instance, are all looked at closely. We investigate a large range of possibilities and offer what seems to cover the most common ground.

For riders of mid-sized motorcycles, we offer very nice F 800 R, GS and ST’s, as well as F 650 GS models. Terrific bikes for people looking at a compact package, without having to give up any of the BMW features they don’t want to go without.

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Reason for edit: rewrote subject line
Last edited by websterize on Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Motorrad's David Robb answers r1150r.org user questions

Post by nylife »

Its nice, that they answered and most answers do make sense
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Re: Motorrad's David Robb answers r1150r.org user questions

Post by hjsbmw »

Those are great questions. Unfortunately, he didn't say anything on seats and windshields or an entry level Boxer, which means most likely there is nothing to say on his end there.
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Re: BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers wa

Post by Tarmac »

It great that he took the time to reply. And since I was the guy who asked the question about a mid-size boxer, im going to add some thoughts.

I know that BMW makes smaller displacement bikes, but I'd never buy one. They may have been made in Berlin, and have a BMW logo on the tank, but they don't LOOK like a BMW. They look like every other bike out there, only they cost a lot more. Seriously, I'd get a Kawasaki Versy, or V-Strom (for 1/2 the price) before I'd get a F 650.

I bought my R1200R because it LOOKS like real BMW, not like a Honda. But there is no lying about it, the bike is HUGE. It dwarfs everything I've ever owned before, (DRZ-400SM, Thruxton, GSXR-750 & 600, CBR-600, DR-350, RZ-350, RD-350, etc). The sheer # on threads on this board about "lowering suspension" and "low seats" proves that there is a market for smaller bikes.

As a guy who had a Triumph Thruxton, I'd point out that "old school" looks DO sell. I won't even mention a certain American motorcycle company, and how they sell WWII tech bikes for $30k...
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Re: BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers wa

Post by bmwk100 »

That is great that he took time out to make such a detailed response. I think he did address the seat/windshield issue by saying that you can't make a bike that fits everyone.

As for the bike being "HUGE", I guess it is all a matter of perspective. Actually, I was just thinking about how small my bike is a couple of days ago. (Coming from BMW K100's, K1200RS, Triumph Sprint) The first thing I noticed when I test rode the bike was how small (light/easy to handle at low speeds) it was compared to other bikes I've ridden.
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Re: BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers wa

Post by parkec »

"Seat/Windshield issue" hmmm? My 07 came with both a seat and a windshield/windscreen, albeit the windshield/windscreen kind of uglies up the bike. :D
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Re: Motorrad's David Robb answers r1150r.org user questions

Post by Ric »

hjsbmw wrote:Those are great questions. Unfortunately, he didn't say anything on seats and windshields or an entry level Boxer, which means most likely there is nothing to say on his end there.
Uh-Ummmmmm......"More than any manufacturer I can think of, we put an effort into trying to cover as much of the ergonomic envelope as possible. Beyond adjustable windscreens, we offer many models with adjustable handlebars, seat heights, and peg positions. This package flexibility cannot be offered on all models, so those with more limited adjustability are optimized for an “average rider“, not able to cover as large a range as those that do....................For riders of mid-sized motorcycles, we offer very nice F 800 R, GS and ST’s, as well as F 650 GS models. ."

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Re: BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers wa

Post by websterize »

Robb is out at BMW.
David Robb (56), the previous head of the BMW Group Motorcycle Design Studio, has left the company. He was in charge of BMW Motorrad design for 18 years. Under his leadership, the design team elaborated the development of the BMW Motorrad product portfolio from three to a current total of six model lines, as well as creating the extensive product range of BMW Motorrad rider equipment and motorcycle accessories.

The first motorcycle designed under David Robb's direction was the BMW K 1200 RS. This was followed by such models as the first BMW cruiser R 1200 C, the innovative K series with transversely mounted 4-cylinder engine, the F series with 2-cylinder parallel twin and the most successful BMW motorcycle of all time, the travel enduro R 1200 GS. The design concept of the latter is regarded to this day as the benchmark in the category of big enduro bikes. Recently there were additional highlights such as the BMW motorcycles with in-line 6-cylinder engine, the K 1600 GT/GTL, and the BMW superbike S 1000 RR. The first BMW maxi-scooters C 600 Sport and C 650 GT only recently saw their world premiere in autumn 2011.
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Re: BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers wa

Post by nielsm »

More details on Robb leaving available here: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/573/12117 ... esign.aspx
Current bikes: 2012 R1200GSA, 2007 R1200R
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Re: BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers wa

Post by Bill Stevenson »

This very interesting thread ended with the big surprise of David Robb's departure. BMW has always been an enigma in many ways and this sudden departure is consistent with the company's modus operandi. It is very weird, though, no question about it.

One comment to add on the ergonomic envelope of the R12R is this: I am about six feet tall with a 33" inseam and with the addition of a Bill Mayer saddle find the bike supremely comfortable. My daughter is 5'3" tall, not sure of her inseam, and with the low factory saddle she has no trouble riding her R12R comfortably. Heretofore she could not ride boxers from the 1980s onward, and she tried many, because they were too tall for her. The R12R is, in my opinion, the best all around bike BMW has ever made.
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Re: BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers wa

Post by Tarmac »

Hey new guy... mid-sized boxer. They fired the last guy who ignored my request.
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Re: BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers wa

Post by ammolab »

Bill Stevenson wrote: My daughter is 5'3" tall, not sure of her inseam, and with the low factory saddle she has no trouble riding her R12R comfortably. Heretofore she could not ride boxers from the 1980s onward, and she tried many, because they were too tall for her. The R12R is, in my opinion, the best all around bike BMW has ever made.
I hate posts with lacking, necessary information! I would be glad to measure her inseam for documentation :twisted:

She must be "ALL LEGS" as I am 5' 9" and still can not flat foot my R1200R with a low seat. Come to think of it I have never flat footed any BMW bike going back to my 1973 R50/5. I do manage to stay upright!
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Re: BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers wa

Post by Tarmac »

I recently got the chance to ride an old R100, and the difference in size was huge. Yeah, the R100 may weigh more, but it was low, and flat. The R1200R, on the other hand, feels like a full sized touring bike with the fairing removed.
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Re: BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers wa

Post by Bill Stevenson »

Ammolab,

Had you asked politely I would have been glad to ask my daughter for her inseam for you. I can tell you that she is not "all legs", and I can tell you that she definitely can't flat foot on her R1200R, but she has been riding since she was 16 years old, is now in her late 30's, and is an expert motorcyclist who knows how to compensate for her diminutive size. She can ride her bike with complete confidence and control. As for measuring her inseam yourself, I wouldn't try it. She is a career Army officer, an expert marksman with the medals to prove it, and her husband, also career Army officer, is a Ranger who might take offense.

Your expressed anger will not win you any points. Please try to express yourself more agreeably, you might be pleasantly surprised at the result.

Regards,

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Re: BMW's Robb addresses the R12R 'facelift,' what buyers wa

Post by ammolab »

Bill Stevenson wrote:Ammolab,

Had you asked politely I would have been glad to ask my daughter for her inseam for you. I can tell you that she is not "all legs", and I can tell you that she definitely can't flat foot on her R1200R, but she has been riding since she was 16 years old, is now in her late 30's, and is an expert motorcyclist who knows how to compensate for her diminutive size. She can ride her bike with complete confidence and control. As for measuring her inseam yourself, I wouldn't try it. She is a career Army officer, an expert marksman with the medals to prove it, and her husband, also career Army officer, is a Ranger who might take offense.

Your expressed anger will not win you any points. Please try to express yourself more agreeably, you might be pleasantly surprised at the result.

Regards,

Bill
Sorry, Bill...NO ANGER intended that symbol is "evil" not anger. Attepted Humor! I think it is great that she rides. My wife is 5'2" and rides herself. I was not picking on her as you can see I said I have a bit of trouble reaching the ground from my saddle as well.

You must be proud of her service to our country. I was an Army Medic in RVN 1966/67. GO ARMY!
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