Buying my R back, but....

[awagnon]

About mid August, in a moment of insanity, I sold my beloved 2004 R1150R. Now I have an opportunity to buy it back as the buyer liked it so much he's ordered a 2009 bike. One problem, he never registered the title, tagged it, or paid sales tax. He's just been riding it with my old tag. (I knew I should have removed that tag.) Anyway, his point is that I can buy the bike back without either of us having to pay sales tax. Sort of like just voiding the sale. Two problems:

1. I've already signed over the title to him.

2. During the time he's had the bike, the tag and taxes came up for renewal and I tossed the form because I didn't own the bike any more.

So, can I just take it back, request a new title from the state, and just get my tag late? Or am I breaking some law since he didn't pay taxes and I won't be either? All of this is assuming the bike is still in perfect condition like it was when I sold it.

[Airman]

Sounds like you had several moments of insanity, Al, but I think cash and paperwork will fix the problems you have. I don't know how Utah is, but in Washington you would certainly have to replace the title and pay all the back taxes to get new tabs for the plate. I had a truck in a similar situation, only worse. The buyer never registered the truck, but then abandoned it. The state came after me to pay the storage and back fees. I had filed the transfer with the state however. No problem for me, probably was for the buyer. Even if you had filed it, the fix is money and paperwork.

[Photoguy]

I would just tear up the old title and file for a replacement as if I'd lost it. Re-registering shouln't be any problem. Here in Massachusetts, i can do that on-line, even after it's expired. In fact, while my reg expires in December every year, I generally don't re-register it until the following April.

[Trout]

Did you send in a "Release of Liability" form when you sold it?

In Idaho, when you sell you are supposed to send in a release of liability form with a $2 fee. This tells the state that you sold the vehicle so if someone uses it to commit a crime or something, you are off the hook.

If you did not notify the DMV of the sale, then as far as they know the bike still belongs to you. You could apply for a duplicate title, shred the old one, and get a current tag.

Having said that, the bike legally belongs to the other guy and it is definately not legal for you to apply for a duplicate title on a vehicle that you do not own.

Also, yes you are supposed to pay sales tax at each transaction (at least in Idaho).

You could probably pull off the swap, but don't get caught. Are you a gambler?

[awagnon]

I would just tear up the old title and file for a replacement as if I'd lost it. Re-registering shouln't be any problem.

This is what I was planning unless someone had a really good reason against it that I hadn't thought of.

[Trout]

...unless someone had a really good reason against it that I hadn't thought of.

See my other post. The only "really good reason" would be getting caught doing something illegal and paying fines along with the sales taxes and fees. It's tempting to "stick it to the man", you just don't want him to find out you did it.

[awagnon]

Did you send in a "Release of Liability" form when you sold it?

In Idaho, when you sell you are supposed to send in a release of liability form with a $2 fee. This tells the state that you sold the vehicle so if someone uses it to commit a crime or something, you are off the hook.

Now that you mention it, I remember doing that when I bought a used bike in Idaho a few years ago. But, there is no such form or "release of liability" process in Utah. You just sign the title and give it to the buyer to file when he does the tags, taxes, and registraton.

I suspect it is illegal. Could you think of it as having the sale annulled, like a marriage? Buyer changed his mind, or his cash bounced?

[Trout]

Could you think of it as having the sale annulled, like a marriage?

It wouldn't make it any more legal, but yes you could.

I'm not trying to convince you to be legal, just tossing out pitfalls. If it were me, since the original sale was only 2 months ago, I'd probably try the "sale annulled" strategy.

My only hesitation would be getting caught in the net once and seeing my friend go through it once too. I bought a bike from a guy that hadn't transferred the title to himself yet, so he couldn't really sell it to me. It was a mess.

My friend bought a car and the seller applied for a duplicate title after he sold it to my friend. There ended up being a dispute, and then later it was noticed that the sales price on the title didn't match the sales price on the bill of sale, etc. It was fun to watch the DMV investigator dig into it all.

I guess if you trust that the current owner hasn't done anything (or won't do anything) to blow your cover, then you should be good.

[awagnon]

I guess if you trust that the current owner hasn't done anything (or won't do anything) to blow your cover, then you should be good.

Looks like if he blows my cover, then he's in trouble too for not paying sales tax, either.

[klentz]

normally you just have to tell them that the bike was broken or wrecked and just fixed

[Airman]

Did you send in a "Release of Liability" form when you sold it?

In Idaho, when you sell you are supposed to send in a release of liability form with a $2 fee. This tells the state that you sold the vehicle so if someone uses it to commit a crime or something, you are off the hook.

If you did not notify the DMV of the sale, then as far as they know the bike still belongs to you. You could apply for a duplicate title, shred the old one, and get a current tag.

Having said that, the bike legally belongs to the other guy and it is definately not legal for you to apply for a duplicate title on a vehicle that you do not own.

Also, yes you are supposed to pay sales tax at each transaction (at least in Idaho).

You could probably pull off the swap, but don't get caught. Are you a gambler?

The thing here is that he never legally took title to the bike. In WA sales taxes are collected at registration time. In theory at least, there would be no way for Al to pay the tax here. His only real problem as I see it is that he pitched the renewal card. It had a PIN munber on it that he needs to do online renewal. http://www.dmv.org/ut-utah/registration ... php#Online I suppose they would send him another one if he asked for it. I still think it's merely a matter of filling out some forms and throwing some money at the DMV. If the guy had registered the bike there'd be a tax problem, but since he didn't the state doesn't see that the bike changed hands. Considering that the state still holds Al responsible as the registered owner, I don't see an ethical issue. If the buyer had abandoned it, like my truck buyer did, with no certificate of transfer Al would be responsible for any fines, towing and storage charges, etc.

[Trout]

The thing here is that he never legally took title to the bike.

Bill of sale, signed over title, exchange of cash... I think so.

I got a 5 spot that says he legally took title to and ownership of the bike. If in question, call the Utah DMV, explain the sitcheeation, and ask them who legally owns the bike right now. This point is really moot. It couldn't really even be argued in court.

Another angle: I sold a Suburban to a guy and he used it for parts. He never transferred the title. Do I still own the Suburban?

[awagnon]

Bill of sale, signed over title, exchange of cash... I think so.an?

There was a bill of sale, I signed over the title, and I took his cash. However, the title was never recorded or registered. He's still holding it. The bill of sale can be torn up by the buyer, if he chooses, and I can give him his money back. Say he decided he didn't want the bike after test riding it for ten weeks.

[Trout]

Say he decided he didn't want the bike after test riding it for ten weeks.

Go with it, man. Go with it
A 70 day money-back guarantee. That is the best angle I've heard so far.
If Costco or REI can refund a sale after 10 weeks, then so can you!

[ruddy]

I gave my son my '82 Suzuki in 1994, and I signed the title over to him. He took it to Salt Lake City, rode it a few times and left it at a friend's house, where it sat for eight years. When I got back into motorcycling again in 2002, I got the bike back from him with the original title I had signed over. He never bothered to register it. I took the title down to the county licensing office and explained what happened. They updated the record to null out the title transfer and charged me the regular license fees to get a current plate. No problem whatsoever.

Your situation is similar, so I don't think you'll have any trouble. Just tell your DMV that he returned the bike and that you want to void the title transfer.

[awagnon]

Your situation is similar, so I don't think you'll have any trouble. Just tell your DMV that he returned the bike and that you want to void the title transfer.

Thanks, Rick. Sounds like a sensible plan.