Traction Control - has ANYONE got it or seen a test?

[Caroanbill]

I've ordered my R12R with ASC. Until this morning I was sceptical that it could be had, but my dealer has 2 R12GS with the GS version (slightly different calibration to allow partial wheel slip), so it is in production.

So, while I wait, has anyone on this board got it or ridden a bike with it?

"Search" here finds .. nuffin. Google finds a lot of technical articles (they read like BMW text, too) but real worlds tests .. nuffin. So I got .. nuffin.

The closest out there is a story that includes a reference to a BMW test rider stalling the bike demontrating ASC in sand.

Has anyone found anything better? Anyone? Anyone at all? Hello?

[bmurphywa]

Sorry. I have it. Well, I have a button to turn it off, at least. Don't have a clue about whether it works.

[Caroanbill]

I'm loath to suggest a tough test since that would involve either

- accelerating hard on a slippery surface with ASC ON / ASC OFF and seeing if there's a difference

- trying to loft the front wheel with ASC ON / ASC OFF and seeing if there's a difference

.. and both tests are, of course, highly irresponsible

Did you play for it or was it merely on the bike (honest, Ma, it uz like that when I got here) ?

It is interesting that BMW don't seem to be emphasing ASC in their media test fleet, nor pushing dealers to put it on the demo - maybe becoz it would inspire irresponsible testing

.. I did suggest to BMW Australia that they insist dealers take one bike with ASC, and maybe order a few just in case (and to save me the 3 month wait )

[celticus]

CAn you do wheelies or fishtail around in the gravel with this ASC?
Mark

[dviolagis]

I have it, I have not tested on wet. But with all the power I have, it keeps the tire holding the road.

I basically have all the options including ESA

[Caroanbill]

THANKS!

Well, at least this confirms the ASC is not intrusive (unlike the late, unlamented, EvoII ABS brakes).

I'm happy to admit I'm getting it as much to keep the front wheel down as to avoid spinning the rear on slippery surfaces. I almost lofted the front during my first test ride - and while some of you would be going "whoo-hoo!", I was thinking "maybe this bike's too much for me". Maybe I'll switch it off on a confident day and see if I can loft the wheel ... but mostly I want to know that, on a miserable or un-confident day, the bike will be docile as well as supremely competent. I have read the threads noting how easy the R1200R wheel comes up, compared to the R1150R ....

When I (evenyually) get the bike, I'll try it with ASC on and off, and write up a timid-rider report!

[br4k]

I just picked up my R1200R yesterday.. needed a bike that would start every day while I learn to diddle and fiddle on my '91 R100GS.

I didn't check the options list until after the deal was final, and it appears to be loaded, including the tire pressure thing. The sales guy mentioned that ASC works, but that when riding aggressively people tend to turn it off. The specific example he gave, was laying on the throttle in a corner to zoom out of it. The system works by comparing rear wheel to front wheel rotational speed, and under duress, even without the front wheel lifting, the differential can be great enough to cause it to retard torque at times you really don't want it to.

I'm still breaking mine in, so haven't had a chance to do anything too spirited yet.

[baffler]

...it was a mistake!

What a total waste of money that was. I would have been much better saving the money and putting it towards getting ESA (which I could really use....but didn't get) or the system cases (which I definitely would use).

Why?

Well, it didn't save my butt on some slippery, wet concrete floor in the carpark at work. Just an oh so slight twist on the throttle whilst turning slightly and the back wheel spun out and I hit the floor fast, scratching the cylinder head. Man was I.....
Anyway, strange thing was, because I was still in gear whilst the bike was lying on the ground, the rear wheel was still turning and the front was not, which should be prevented by the ASC system....if it worked!

Now frankly, if it cannot save your bacon at walking speed, how will it save it at real riding speeds. Quite frankly, I doubt it will and I'm not willing to push the bike to its limits in the wet around corners and find out.

Additionally, it has stalled whilst trying to take off from loose terrain. Totally unnecessary, not to mention embarrassing. About the only time it has helped and not hinderer was when I was taking it through a fire trail (well groomed, not real off road) and was pouring on the gas every now and then to test the system. Under those conditions, it enhanced handling by not having the back fly out, rather it held the line. This however is a small percentage (like 0.001%) of my driving.....it is after all a Roadster!

Frankly, if I didn't want to be bothered by that stupid orange light that would be permanently lit should I disable it, I would turn it off permanently. I wish I could sell it back to the dealer. Oh.....maybe I could eBay it. Brilliant.

Anyone want to buy a button with ASC on it and some firmware?

[deilenberger]

The sales guy mentioned that ASC works, but that when riding aggressively people tend to turn it off. The specific example he gave, was laying on the throttle in a corner to zoom out of it. The system works by comparing rear wheel to front wheel rotational speed, and under duress, even without the front wheel lifting, the differential can be great enough to cause it to retard torque at times you really don't want it to.

I'd love to hear his logic behind this. If both wheels are in contact with the ground - and not slipping - even accelerating as hard as you can - the rotational rates will stay in sync. They can only get out of sync if one wheel isn't turning at the same speed as the other - which means one wheel is slipping.

Sounds like usual salesman blather.. trying to sound expert whilst making a total ass out of themselves.

[baffler]

well Don, as much as would like to also bag the salesman, he may have a point.

Consider that the front and rear wheel have different dimensions, shape, profile, operating pressure, and tread depth/wear characteristics. Also, they both have vastly different forces that act on them, when braking and accelerating. Finally, they take different paths when turning/cornering (the front goes the long way and the rear tends to take short cuts). Not to mention the reduction in radius when banking hard into a corner. Add all the differences up and I would bet you there would be quite different rates of rotation, even when both contact the ground.

Now I'm just saying......all the differences, which are compounded when banking and accelerating under load and hard acceleration, could trick the ASC into thinking things are starting to slip and the system may take action, i.e. retard the engine. I'm not saying that ASC is a good thing and that it works (see my previous post) but ya gotta admit, the scenario described by the salesman is plausible.

[mogu83]

I think (IMHO) that the issue is how do you ride.
(when riding aggressively people tend to turn it off)
If you putt through the 35MPH turns at 30MPH you'll most likely never notice the difference, but if you like hitting the 35s at 60, and don't mind the rear end sliding out a little you may have to adjust your riding style. Being an old dog, and used to 120/130mm rear tires, I don't mind the rear coming around a little, in fact I enjoy controlling it with my right hand. Now with a 180 donut on the back I don't even think I could slide that thing, but with 109HP who knows. Bottom line is that the Superbikes and some GP bikes have been using a similar system for the last few seasons to keep the big bikes straight coming out of the turns.

I think if you want to ride really fast it will help, but you will have to develop a new set of skills. Or you could say that you have to surrender another function of a skilled rider to the little solid state device under your seat and hope it doesn't go belly up in a hard turn.

[deilenberger]

Now I'm just saying......all the differences, which are compounded when banking and accelerating under load and hard acceleration, could trick the ASC into thinking things are starting to slip and the system may take action, i.e. retard the engine. I'm not saying that ASC is a good thing and that it works (see my previous post) but ya gotta admit, the scenario described by the salesman is plausible.

And you don't think BMW anticipated all these things happening? I'd guess they did actually, and that's why it too so long to actually get to market.

It's sorta like the M3 forums I hang out on.. lots of kids think it's macho to turn off the DSC (same thing - except it also does braking to keep you going where you intend to go - and uses yaw sensors and stuff..) when driving enthusiastically. These are the same kids who later post about how they trashed the car (crash, off-road, curbed, etc.) while driving enthusiastically and the back end came around or they started sliding and didn't know what to do..... with the DSC off.

It's bad enough - it's sorta an inside joke among the moderators - when we see someone bragging about turning the DSC off - we keep track until we see their crash report.

The majority of riders aren't as good as the computer - and in the majority of cases - the ASC is gonna be a help. There may be one rider out there (and it might be you and/or Harry) who can out think the computer and do it better, but for the rest of us - I think ASC is a good thing, and I certainly wouldn't be turning it off when riding enthusiastically - which is when you'll need it (think wet tar snake in the middle of a turn..)

Remember what people said about ABS? Same thing..

Will ASC improve? - Sure will, but just as it is - I'm willing to bet it can help the average dude riding, and not hinder them. Wonder why it's so popular in racing circles? It's not like they want to go slower..

Since I've seen no one here actually post where the scenerio described by the saleman has happened to them - I'll continue to consider it salesman blather..

[deilenberger]

Well, it didn't save my butt on some slippery, wet concrete floor in the carpark at work. Just an oh so slight twist on the throttle whilst turning slightly and the back wheel spun out and I hit the floor fast, scratching the cylinder head. Man was I.....
Anyway, strange thing was, because I was still in gear whilst the bike was lying on the ground, the rear wheel was still turning and the front was not, which should be prevented by the ASC system....if it worked!

Just like ABS - I suspect it has a threshold speed above which it starts to operate (ABS is about 10MPH..) so - it probably worked exactly as designed..

I'm sure contacting BMW-Motorad might get you the threshold speed answer..

And if you can figure out how to take it off your bike and put it on mine - I'm interested.

[baffler]

The difference between cars and bikes is clear - 2 wheels vs 4. A car is, at rest, and even at speed, stable and cannot fall down. A bike however, at rest will want to fall down though when moving, due to gyroscopic forces tends to want to stay upright. You turn a bike at speed with downward pressure of the handlebars, you don't turn it like a steering wheel. You hence need balance to ride a motorbike, but you don't in a car. Getting that balance right takes experience and skill. Cars and bikes are very different, and I would suggest that bikes have substantially less margin for error than cars when things start to slip. In addition, once the bike has begun to slip, there is a point of no return where no matter what any system does, you are on the ground. Cars also can break their traction and kiss their butt goodbye, but a car can frequently be correctable, especially when not all four wheels break traction at the same time.

My point here is: You can't compare cars and bikes.

On the race track, the pistes are well groomed, usually free of debris, and most certainly free of those ultra dangerous slick white lines, tar filled cracks, drains and manhole covers that all conspire to put bikers on their butts in the real roads.

Think about this: At 60 km/h, you will cover 50 cms in about 30 ms. If that 50 cms was a wet tarred crack, or steel manhole cover, would the system be able to sense and subsequently react and correct the speed of the rear wheel in time before the wheel has broken traction beyond correction? I am skeptical. Though I would also LOVE to see data from BMW suggesting otherwise, which would make me feel a lot better about my (mis)-purchase. So far, I have found none.....and I have been looking.

BTW: I will still leave the ASC active, in the vain hope that someday it will save my bacon, though it will probably go unnoticed by me.

[mogu83]

I too find it hard to imagine that ASC could work fast enough to save you from the adrenalin rush and increase in pulse rate caused by crossing a tar snake or one of those slippery lines in the rain. Fortunately those road hazards usually don't put you on the road.
Now gravel in a turn is another thing, and I don't see ASC as helping because it's the speed you already have that will cause you to slide, usually both ends. Only skill,experience and a little help from the hand of God will get you ( or I) through a gravel covered corner that we foolishly entered too fast.
Right now I see it as just another electronic toy that does little (actually nothing) to enhance the basic enjoyment of riding a motorcycle.

But, ASC,ABS, tire pressure monitors and power assisted brakes are all attractive selling points that serve to convince a person interested in being safe all the time that an inherently unstable vehicle is as safe as the family sedan.

"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." Mary Shafer,Lead Engineer Edwards AFB, NASA

[Caroanbill]

Thanks for ASC stories.

(start rant)
I think I can safely ignore any salesman's wanna-be-hairy-chested comments about switching ASC off.

I want ASC to take (some) care of unexpected wheelspin on slick surfaces while I fuss about all the other things I fuss about when the riding gets tricky. (Look THROUGH the corner, Billy. Keep your eyes UP, Billy. In wide, out close, Billy.) I also want one less thing to fret about when taking the tight, sometimes greasy, corners out of my home while the tyres are still cold - an early slip tends to spoil my riding day.

I also want ASC to keep my front wheel down when accelerating ... I'm afraid I'll automatically crack the throttle too wide without remembering I'm not on my wee bike - I'll fess up to cracking the throttle fully open on my F650 because it loves to wind out and (let's face it) it's pretty hard to over-accelerate a 37kw ,652cc single. (Oh, yeah, and because, despite being relatively timid, I looooove the sound of the big single barking through my Staintune pipe.) I did the same thing on the R12R and the wheel came up ... in second gear ... now, that's NOT my riding style, so I'm hoping the ASC will tame things a bit.

I know car and bike ASC systems are different, and I rather doubt I'd want brakes applied (however gently) on a bike as they are in my car's system. I occasionally switch the ASC off in my old 528i, out in the country, to feel how the car moves. I would never, ever switch it off when I'm hustling around slick, tight, steep harbourside streets: if I wanted to paint all those sandstone walls Oxford Green, I'd use a paintbrush!

I like the ABS analogy: when I first had ABS, I used to run a 'sweep', betting on how long we'd sit wherever before the first sportsbiker would start a conversation so he could tell us how he could brake faster than ABS. I never doubted (and, frankly, never cared) that some guys could - the point was that I couldn't. After all, that guy isn't aboard my bike when I need to make an emergency stop.

And so it is with ASC. It's there for me, to give me a little more confidence and one less thing to fret about so I can enjoy my riding more.

No doubt the next generations of ASC will be better: less intrusive, more effective and more subtle. Just like ABS. The ABS I have now is light years ahead on the first system (ABSII) I had on a K110LT - but I wouldn't have gone without ABS back then: no matter how crude in retrospect, it saved my bacon several times.

(end of rant)

So THANKS again for sharing ASC experiences - I don't necessarily share your riding style, but it is really useful to understand what the system does in the real world. If I get brave enough to switch it off, I'll post a comparison ... or, more likely, I'll get a decent ridert to check it out!