Yikes!!!! Rear wheel almost falls off after dealer service

Post by **iowabeakster** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:15 pm

Greybeard,

I agree with your point and made the same suggestions in my earlier post. But I disagree in that I don't believe that the rider can in any way be blamed for this. When you were responsible for a Pre-drive inspection, that was because you were a professional driver, with professional responsibilities. This rider professed that he is not comfortable with wrenching and maintenance to the professional degree to ensure his safety.

He then spends professional rates to have professional mechanics do the job professionally. They did not do this.

A number of people have mentioned this wheel falling off trick when picking up their cars from service. Now lets take your wife or daughter or mother for instance. When they have new tires put on a car, do you expect them to have the wrench in hand, torque the lugs out in the parking lot before driving off?

Post by **DJ Downunder** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:27 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The responsibility is 100% with the Dealer. There are people that do zero work on their bike beyond maintaining a safe oil level and checking tire pressures. They take their bike to a dealer spending a good portion of a weeks salary because they want the difficult and/or safety related jobs done by experienced professionals using expensive shop equipment and special tools. Not tightening the wheel studs is a HUGE mistake that could have killed socalrob AND his wife. A pre-ride inspection may not have been long enough to loosen lugs tightened with only a cordless drill.

The dealer realizes the seriousness of what happened and the Tech responsible is in big trouble.

Nicely said CycleRob.

DJ

chris · Post by **chris** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:46 pm

Bottom line is that you paid for a service you didn't get. Whether or not you should check their work is a different debate.

Post by **beekstersocal** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:56 pm

hey rob glad your ok , the same thing happen to my friend exactly. and at the same dealer about a year ago, after my 12000 mile service. i took the bike out up to julian when i got up to the top of the mountain, oil all over my rear wheel drive shaft, ground, etc.

tho the dealer did replace both tires, both breaks, and cleaned everything up, I still bring my torque wrench after picking it up from service

now i always go in at the dealer and joke around but[ seriously] double check my bike. either way glad you didn't get hurt, hope the bike is okay.

chris · Post by **chris** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:36 pm

sounds like you guys need to find a new dealership...

frbank6 · Post by **frbank6** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:21 pm

I have to reply that I totally disagree with Greybeard. First, who carries a torquewrench to pick up their bike? Nothing short of one could confirm whether the nuts were tight enough. Second, we aren't talking about refueling the space shuttle here; it's very reasonable to assume that the tech can get his head around the necessary technology to tighten a bloody lug nut. I think this dealer should consider himself very lucky if Socalrob doesn't sue, and he should be looking for a new tech to replace the one he just fired(I hope). At the rates they are paid, it's totally reasonable to assume the dealer can handle the basics without constant oversight. When that's not true, they should be fully accountable.

Greybeard · Post by **Greybeard** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:59 pm

So, from the popularity of your positions I have no choice but to believe there are myriad of you out there riding motorcycles which you haven't a clue about the condition of ...and you think that's just fine?

You won't check out a motorcycle someone other than you has worked on before riding it?

But of course you check out your bike BEFORE each ride then, eh?
What with these thousands of miles a year everyone puts on, right?

I just can't believe the group mentality and sense of entitlement extends to insisting on perfection from someone you've slandered THOUSANDS of time in these very same forums over their piss-poor performance on much less critical projects!

And, if you don't have at least the sense of self-preservation to ask the service manager to go through the shops work with you step by step before riding off, you haven't earned the right to bitch about what you get.

Hell, if you've got the cojones, bust their chops a little! " Hey, Don! (all service managers are "Don" aren't they?) " You guys seem to be really busy today so toss me a wrench and let me check those lugs because I know that YOU know I cut you out of my will!"

C'mon people, less crying and more participation here!

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Post by **socalrob** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:26 pm

Greybeard,

Just for your info,

1 - The shop manager took my bike for a spin to check on an unrelated item.
2 - The shop sets the lugs with an electric wrench. So the only way to verify the correct torque would be to loosen the lugs & then torque them (at least as I understand things). I don't see how this can be part of a pre ride inspection as I wouls suspect that doing that 600 to 1000 times a year would wear out the threads (maybe I'm wrong here).

I would be interested if anyone would have an intelligent "static" torque value that could be checked without first loosening the bolts.

And if youv'e read my posts in the past, you would know that I generally defend dealers, I paid list for my bike with no problem, I pay list for BMW parts / clothing at my dealer (instead of ordering from Chicago), I pay list for tires. I go to a dealer that only carries BMW on the theory they are better at service.

Could/Should I do more checking on the dealer's work. Yes, I guess so. I would be curious to see how many on this board that do not do their own tire changes actually retorque their wheels.

frbank6 · Post by **frbank6** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:08 am

Greybeard,
Where you visit a doctor, there is a reasonable expectation he went to med school. When you see an accountant, there is a reasonable expectation he passed the CPA exam. When I visit my BMW dealer, I have a reasonable expectation he can handle basics like lug nuts. When reasonable expectations of competence are not met, the law has a name for that.

I guess, just to be on the safe side, you totally dismantle your new bikes, just to make sure they built it right. It's the only way to be sure, right? And, if you did, who goes behind you to make sure you did it right?

I pay hard earned money at my dealer. It is reasonable to assume lots of things about that transaction. Competence with the lugs is Mechanics 101. We aren't talking about some arcane setting of throttle bodies or some obscure internal transmission part here. Wheels are put on and taken off bikes all day long, every day.

Post by **GypsyRR** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:12 am

Greybeard wrote: I just can't believe the group mentality and sense of entitlement extends to insisting on perfection

C'mon people, less crying and more participation here!

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Do you ever eat in restaurants or in other people's homes? If so, what kind of "pre-eat" inspection would you suggest?

I come to this board to learn because I want to be a better owner/rider of my motorcycle, but I didn't come out of the motorcycle safety class's womb already knowing how to perform all the maintenance on my bike. However, I do have an insatiable desire to learn and become proficient at it. I'm learning things all the time, but it takes time to learn all of this stuff. In the meantime, I have to trust the work of my tech until I develop more skills and can acquire more tools. That's not a group mentality or a sense of entitlement - that's called necessity and trust in the integrity they tout.

(Now will someone please tell me how to pre-check my wheels to make sure this doesn't happen to me? I don't trust those techs anymore!

Tools needed? Make it real simple and specific too, please. Seriously!!)

(Edited for clairty. Thanks _ _ _ _ _ _ _ for pointing out my typing/grammar/vocabulary mistakes privately rather than publically. It's good to know there are resident grammarians and wordsmiths on this motorcycle board. I'm getting a motorcycle AND vocabulary/grammar education from this site. Incredible!!!!)

Rog(UK) - Yorkshire Dales · Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:53 am

The thing is that everybody's right and everybody's wrong.

Yes, we have to trust the mechanics; that's what we pay them for. On the otherhand, I agree with Greybeard (a first name would be nice) in that we should always have a walk round the bike when it has been out of our sight. I do this when I am putting on my gloves so it really doesn't take much extra time. - tyres, wheels, any oil leaks, indicators etc. It may save my life one day. I would hate to be at the Pearly Gates explaining that I didn't spend 20 seconds on inspecting my bike....

Ride safely

Rog.

Post by **wncbmw** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:24 am

Greybeard - if you can put off the insults to most of the forum members for a moment, tell me - do you think bringing your own torque wrench with you to pick up a bike should be neccessary? Lug nuts can feel and appear fine, until you are down the road a ways!

You seem to believe if someone isn't a competent (or even obsessive) wrench, they should not be entitled to ride!

I agree with you that everyone do at least a minimum of pre-ride checks (tires, oil, etc.) but the disagreement seems to be how much and how much faith you should put in a mechanic.

My guess, if you take it to a mechanic, it is probably because you can't do it yourself or don't have the tools, so how are you able to check it out? Again, lug nuts probably can't be checked without a torque wrench unless you just put the lug wrench and wail on it - messing up the torque the tech did, if he did!

Post by **Boxer** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:39 am

Hey! Sh!t happens. It was an oversight by the tech. Socal is lucky he wasn't the TOTAL beneficiary of that oversight and was able to correct the result somewhat. Don't whine. Get over it. And let the dealer know he almost killed a paying customer. How you let him know that is up to you. Personally I'd go in screaming and throwing things...Well maybe not throwing things.

Greybeard is right in that there is a growing feeling of entitlement and lack of personal responsibility. But in this case it appears that Socal was not at all irresponsible and should bear no blame whatsoever for his "dodged bullet". Sh!t happens. Get over it, if you survive.

Over and out. Can we go ride now?

Greybeard · Post by **Greybeard** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:52 am

I DO believe in "reasonable expectation of performance" in the majority of those examples shown.

I said before I accept the risk...but ONLY in those areas where it's totally out of my control or I have no means of PERSONAL verification.
Medicine, mass transit, Thai food...what the hell do I know?

But this is YOUR motorcycle and the one in question owned by an admitted obcessive!

If that wheel had come loose after socal verified the work I'D be the lead villager with a pitch fork.
(And socal, don't let them try to tell you those lugs were tight when you left, they're FOS!)

But to not even make an attempt at verifying CRITICAL work on a vehicle the very laws of physics are against let alone just poor luck is out of the realm of reason and acceptability.

At the very least don't publicly whinge about it.

And I'm doubly amazed at the support shown here for laissez faire toward repair people who weren't trusted going in the door.

Triply amazed there's folk out there who don't WANT to know about rudimentary workings of their motorcycle!

Well, maybe socal's situation has lit the bulb for the rest, good come from bad, eh?

I'll bet you ALL start verifying outside work done here on out.

And Rog, Greybeard IS my first name!
It's a family thing.........

Post by **sjbmw** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:04 am

I drive a car, and I don't know how to work on it. My dealer services it.
I don't tug on the wheels after a front end alignment, or after getting new tires.

I ride a motorcycle, and outside of oil changes, I don't know how to work on it. My dealer services it. I had 2 new tires installed, and did not tug on the wheels before I left the dealer. I expected them to stay on, and they have. Apparently this assupmption is off base? Right.

Or should I get rid of my vehicles, and get a horse?

Sorry, ain't buying that bs.

Post by **iowabeakster** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:26 pm

Greybeard,

personal responsibility is not the issue here. Socal and most others do not feel qualified to take responsibility for the some maintenance isuues.
Instead they pay professionals to handle that responsibility. The exacting nature of some people insist that someone more experienced and knowledgeable do the wrenching on their bikes. This is not irresonsibility. This is the highest form of responsibility. To acknowledge that another person is better suited for the task.

I have no problem turning some wrenches. Heck I enjoy it. I got myself my very own torque wrenches. However I did not bring them to the dealer after getting a new tire. It is not because I don't know how to torque a nut. It is because, I trust them, and their professional responsibility.

They ride bikes. They service bikes. They know the paramount importance of torqueing wheel lugs. Their business, their reputation, their professional integrity are on the line to ensure that the job gets done correctly. They know this and accept this risk. When they fail in their responsibility, they are liable. When something like this happens, they know that it was due to their negligence, not the customers.

I love your call to personal resposibility. I generally feel as you do. People in general do not accept responsibility on the level that they should. In most regards, I will join you in singing the chorus of personal responsibility. This thread has nothing to do with personal responsibility.

p.s.

But this is YOUR motorcycle and the one in question owned by an admitted obcessive!

I am the admitted obsesive and the motorcyle in question is not mine.

popgazer · Post by **popgazer** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:36 pm

Hey Greybeard: see you at the dentist !

Greybeard · Post by **Greybeard** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:05 pm

popgazer wrote:Hey Greybeard: see you at the dentist !

It IS gettin' warm in here, eh?

Hell, I'm on vacation and not much better to do and my shoulders are broad. OLD but broad.

I guess I'm just from a different day but I can't leave that much responsibility to someone who I don't trust more than myself, and I screw up with alarming regularity!

Just do your loved ones a favor; make sure the insurance is paid and don't EVER ride 2 up.

Oh, and PLEASE don't make the mistake of thinking I have any other motive or attitude but concern and your welfare at heart. I'm not angry, just frustrated from seeing too many people ruin their and their loved one's lives by avoidable mistakes.
It's not like I'm trying to get you do something that'll hurt.

Now excuse me while I go finish putting the Guzzi stickers on my bike!

thenewcamus · Post by **thenewcamus** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:04 pm

I gotta agree with the majority here Greybeard. You're out of line trying to blame SoCal of negligence when he has just been through a hell of an ordeal. I know you're old and looking for somewhere to sow the seeds of knowledge from your myriad years of experience, but you've overstretched here. Maybe try a politics thread.

Greybeard · Post by **Greybeard** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:41 pm

And don't tell me your estate wouldn't sue the skin right off socal if you had been riding with him or if his bike hit your car and someone got hurt/dead.

You guys just aren't making sense now.

C'mon, there HAS to be an attorney in here somewhere, sound off!

Think you'd slide through court by saying it's the dealers fault?