winter riding?
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insanehussain
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winter riding?
not having the benefit of an oil temp gauge, i'm trying to figure out at what ambient temps should i consider blocking the oil coolers with cardboard, rags or some such...
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Paul Mihalka
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Re: winter riding?
You don't have to cover it. The oil cooler circuit has a thermostat. By the way, around where I am, we call covering the oil coolers or radiators with cardboard a West Virginia thermostat.insanehussain wrote:not having the benefit of an oil temp gauge, i'm trying to figure out at what ambient temps should i consider blocking the oil coolers with cardboard, rags or some such...
You don't stop riding because you get old - you get old because you stop riding!
Dag se meneer,
At about 50 A degrees it will take about 5-8 miles to get the oil to 185 degrees - thermostat opening temp.
Any ambient temp under 50 A degrees, travelling at a consistant speed above 45, will keep the oil temp at 185 degrees - the thermostat opening temp. This is unless you are cruising at 95 plus and then it will go up to about 210 after about 20 miles.
At about 60 A degrees, cruising at 80 it will run about 195.
Hit rain in any weather, and it will drop quickly to 175 due to the water from the front wheel directly cooling the sump and then begin to creep up again.
Stop start traffic for 15 minutes or more in about 60 degrees with very little movement under 40 mph and it could reach 250.
185 degrees is consistant with engine temps maintained on all water cooled bike and car motors. I fail to see the rationale of blocking the coolers when the bikes have a thermostat.
The oil cooling circuit is separate from the lubrication one - even has another pump. That, like the cooling system of a car, only opens fully to direct oil/water into the radiators when the core temp of the motor reaches 185.
High speed 95 plus/plus for 10 miles or more in 95 plus A - I not seen more thant 230 degrees - so, our motors are well cared for in their design - hot or cold weather, unless you run them for extended periods standing still.
I run a VDO gauge and sender unit that is in direct contact with the oil in the sump.
Actual head temps are another story!
Hope that helps.
Acacia.
At about 50 A degrees it will take about 5-8 miles to get the oil to 185 degrees - thermostat opening temp.
Any ambient temp under 50 A degrees, travelling at a consistant speed above 45, will keep the oil temp at 185 degrees - the thermostat opening temp. This is unless you are cruising at 95 plus and then it will go up to about 210 after about 20 miles.
At about 60 A degrees, cruising at 80 it will run about 195.
Hit rain in any weather, and it will drop quickly to 175 due to the water from the front wheel directly cooling the sump and then begin to creep up again.
Stop start traffic for 15 minutes or more in about 60 degrees with very little movement under 40 mph and it could reach 250.
185 degrees is consistant with engine temps maintained on all water cooled bike and car motors. I fail to see the rationale of blocking the coolers when the bikes have a thermostat.
The oil cooling circuit is separate from the lubrication one - even has another pump. That, like the cooling system of a car, only opens fully to direct oil/water into the radiators when the core temp of the motor reaches 185.
High speed 95 plus/plus for 10 miles or more in 95 plus A - I not seen more thant 230 degrees - so, our motors are well cared for in their design - hot or cold weather, unless you run them for extended periods standing still.
I run a VDO gauge and sender unit that is in direct contact with the oil in the sump.
Actual head temps are another story!
Hope that helps.
Acacia.
Member #192
"Life is a curve!"
"Life is a curve!"
Acacia...how did you get your sender to contact the oil?Acacia wrote:Dag se meneer,
At about 50 A degrees it will take about 5-8 miles to get the oil to 185 degrees - thermostat opening temp.
Any ambient temp under 50 A degrees, travelling at a consistant speed above 45, will keep the oil temp at 185 degrees - the thermostat opening temp. This is unless you are cruising at 95 plus and then it will go up to about 210 after about 20 miles.
At about 60 A degrees, cruising at 80 it will run about 195.
Hit rain in any weather, and it will drop quickly to 175 due to the water from the front wheel directly cooling the sump and then begin to creep up again.
Stop start traffic for 15 minutes or more in about 60 degrees with very little movement under 40 mph and it could reach 250.
185 degrees is consistant with engine temps maintained on all water cooled bike and car motors. I fail to see the rationale of blocking the coolers when the bikes have a thermostat.
The oil cooling circuit is separate from the lubrication one - even has another pump. That, like the cooling system of a car, only opens fully to direct oil/water into the radiators when the core temp of the motor reaches 185.
High speed 95 plus/plus for 10 miles or more in 95 plus A - I not seen more thant 230 degrees - so, our motors are well cared for in their design - hot or cold weather, unless you run them for extended periods standing still.
I run a VDO gauge and sender unit that is in direct contact with the oil in the sump.
Actual head temps are another story!
Hope that helps.
Acacia.
I also have a VDO set up, but am using the CycleRob-inspired mounting of the sender into the blind hole under the alternator cover...
My readings vaguely mirror yours...dependant on what gear I am in.
j magda
TripleLifer Member 454
04 Black (the Classiest Color) R1150R
Deep in the OH wasteland...
TripleLifer Member 454
04 Black (the Classiest Color) R1150R
Deep in the OH wasteland...
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riceburner
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Riceburner,
BMW might know the perimeters of their tests, but do you? I expressed that general confidence in them in my original response. I have enough experience to know that even the best laid plans of men and mice go astray - automotive and product recalls and the like.
Depending on the oil one uses, I get uncomfortable if it is dino oil and it is getting over 250 degrees. Synthetic can take higher.
I like to know what is happening down there so that if I need to make an informed decison, I am not guessing. It is surprising how quickly the oil temp will climb from 210 to 250 and beyond if you are not moving. There is also a reason they state, start and ride off. Interesting too that all the newer bikes have a temp guage - I wonder why?
jm1515,
On my previous 1100 I did a similar set up to Cyclerob. It is OK, but obviously not in direct contact with the oil - the ideal wjhich he alluded too.
On the 50R I found a 15mm, 1.5 thread -if I recall, which is the size of the oil drain plug thread - brass 'adapter' at the local parts store. Most of their usual oversize metric 'plugs' are 14.5mm here in the US.
I then tapped the 1/8" NPT thread way up in the adapter to get the sender unit as far up as possible. There is about 1mm between the sender and the adapter clearance. The whole fixture would stick a little too far down for my comfort if this was not done. With this it is now 25mm from the base of the sump to the tip of the sender. I then routed the wire up the left side through the bottom fins. At several points I drilled a small hole through the fins to put a cable tie throught o hold it in place. I also made a small stone guard that mounts about 1 " X 1" in front of the sender unit - as it is directly behind the trajectories of what might come off the front wheel. This guard has now obviously seen some serious missile contacts.
Your biggest challenge is finding a gasket for the brass 15mm unit. I get an M14 washer that has a black rubber vulcanized section in the center onto a steel washer ( #65269 9/16" M14 made by Oil-tite - Dorman, an division of R&B Inc.). Tighten enought to seal - too much and the rubber will shear. 10,000 miles and no leaks.
Any further help needed, pm me.
Acacia.
BMW might know the perimeters of their tests, but do you? I expressed that general confidence in them in my original response. I have enough experience to know that even the best laid plans of men and mice go astray - automotive and product recalls and the like.
Depending on the oil one uses, I get uncomfortable if it is dino oil and it is getting over 250 degrees. Synthetic can take higher.
I like to know what is happening down there so that if I need to make an informed decison, I am not guessing. It is surprising how quickly the oil temp will climb from 210 to 250 and beyond if you are not moving. There is also a reason they state, start and ride off. Interesting too that all the newer bikes have a temp guage - I wonder why?
jm1515,
On my previous 1100 I did a similar set up to Cyclerob. It is OK, but obviously not in direct contact with the oil - the ideal wjhich he alluded too.
On the 50R I found a 15mm, 1.5 thread -if I recall, which is the size of the oil drain plug thread - brass 'adapter' at the local parts store. Most of their usual oversize metric 'plugs' are 14.5mm here in the US.
I then tapped the 1/8" NPT thread way up in the adapter to get the sender unit as far up as possible. There is about 1mm between the sender and the adapter clearance. The whole fixture would stick a little too far down for my comfort if this was not done. With this it is now 25mm from the base of the sump to the tip of the sender. I then routed the wire up the left side through the bottom fins. At several points I drilled a small hole through the fins to put a cable tie throught o hold it in place. I also made a small stone guard that mounts about 1 " X 1" in front of the sender unit - as it is directly behind the trajectories of what might come off the front wheel. This guard has now obviously seen some serious missile contacts.
Your biggest challenge is finding a gasket for the brass 15mm unit. I get an M14 washer that has a black rubber vulcanized section in the center onto a steel washer ( #65269 9/16" M14 made by Oil-tite - Dorman, an division of R&B Inc.). Tighten enought to seal - too much and the rubber will shear. 10,000 miles and no leaks.
Any further help needed, pm me.
Acacia.
Member #192
"Life is a curve!"
"Life is a curve!"
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insanehussain
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baie dankie, acacia. very helpful info.
i always stress about oil temps around this time of the year... obviously not enough to add a gauge. as long as the roads are clear i hazard the commute on the bike; sub freezing temps, 12 mile run at highway speeds... i always wonder if the bike truly gets up to proper operating temp.
i have the longevity of the engine at heart... the bike's a keeper!
i always stress about oil temps around this time of the year... obviously not enough to add a gauge. as long as the roads are clear i hazard the commute on the bike; sub freezing temps, 12 mile run at highway speeds... i always wonder if the bike truly gets up to proper operating temp.
i have the longevity of the engine at heart... the bike's a keeper!
emoticon thought that you were serious. 
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CycleRob
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insanehussain,
In sub freezing temps and a 12 mile trip your engine will take too long to reach operating temp, even though the oil thermostat may open at around the 10 mile mark. If you do the math, your engine only has about another 3 or 4 minutes, at only 168degF, to cook away the condensates it added for the first 8 miles of your trip. You may have already noticed a milky/cloudy oil window - - - a sure sign your motor is NOT getting hot enough.
I regularily did an 18.5 mile trip to work in as cold as 38degF (I have a heated Frontier KingCab too) and without the coolers blocked off, it only got up to that 168degF figure. Not enough to cook off condensates in that 28 minute commute. After I gently tucked a (cut) half of a hand towel in each cooler tunnel, the temp would reach over 185degF. What you must reallize is that the oil coolers are supplemental coolers that are needed by most air cooled engines once the engine displacement gets over about 750cc. There are exceptions in bikes like a Virago 1100 . . . which Yamaha feels is understressed and heavily finned. The BMW OilHead has lots of cylinder and crankcase/sump finning that, by it's large surface area, is most of what cools the oil, so blocking off the oil cooler tunnels isn't the all-or-nothing crisis you'd think. That ample crankcase/sump finning gets REAL efficient when the ambient temps go below 45F because the Delta T (temp diff) gets larger. You can perform your own real world test driving your car in different temps and just sticking your hand out the window at 60MPH. Your 98degF hand in 90F, 70F, 50F or 30F outside air will show you the HUGE differences in heat loss "another" 20 degrees gives you.
The problem is that the BMW thermostat in the oil cooler circuit doesn't care your only going 12 miles in 28degF and with the ample crankcase finning overcooling will together regulate the oil sump temp to 168 even though the thermostat opens about 172.
To answer your original question: " . . . at what ambient temps should i consider blocking the oil coolers ?"
I'd say, for your 12 mile trip, NONE above 65F, ONE towel for 50F---65F and BOTH towels for less than 50F. There's almost no chance you'll overheat the engine (above 250F) unless traffic converts to a parking lot - - - then I reach in and yank out the towel(s) out. When/If you get an oil temp gauge, you'll be able to use the lower gears after the 8 mile mark to keep the rpm's over 3,500 to push the oil temp up higher/faster. Don't worry about overheating in sub-freezing temps - - - worry about overcooling.
In sub freezing temps and a 12 mile trip your engine will take too long to reach operating temp, even though the oil thermostat may open at around the 10 mile mark. If you do the math, your engine only has about another 3 or 4 minutes, at only 168degF, to cook away the condensates it added for the first 8 miles of your trip. You may have already noticed a milky/cloudy oil window - - - a sure sign your motor is NOT getting hot enough.
I regularily did an 18.5 mile trip to work in as cold as 38degF (I have a heated Frontier KingCab too) and without the coolers blocked off, it only got up to that 168degF figure. Not enough to cook off condensates in that 28 minute commute. After I gently tucked a (cut) half of a hand towel in each cooler tunnel, the temp would reach over 185degF. What you must reallize is that the oil coolers are supplemental coolers that are needed by most air cooled engines once the engine displacement gets over about 750cc. There are exceptions in bikes like a Virago 1100 . . . which Yamaha feels is understressed and heavily finned. The BMW OilHead has lots of cylinder and crankcase/sump finning that, by it's large surface area, is most of what cools the oil, so blocking off the oil cooler tunnels isn't the all-or-nothing crisis you'd think. That ample crankcase/sump finning gets REAL efficient when the ambient temps go below 45F because the Delta T (temp diff) gets larger. You can perform your own real world test driving your car in different temps and just sticking your hand out the window at 60MPH. Your 98degF hand in 90F, 70F, 50F or 30F outside air will show you the HUGE differences in heat loss "another" 20 degrees gives you.
The problem is that the BMW thermostat in the oil cooler circuit doesn't care your only going 12 miles in 28degF and with the ample crankcase finning overcooling will together regulate the oil sump temp to 168 even though the thermostat opens about 172.
To answer your original question: " . . . at what ambient temps should i consider blocking the oil coolers ?"
I'd say, for your 12 mile trip, NONE above 65F, ONE towel for 50F---65F and BOTH towels for less than 50F. There's almost no chance you'll overheat the engine (above 250F) unless traffic converts to a parking lot - - - then I reach in and yank out the towel(s) out. When/If you get an oil temp gauge, you'll be able to use the lower gears after the 8 mile mark to keep the rpm's over 3,500 to push the oil temp up higher/faster. Don't worry about overheating in sub-freezing temps - - - worry about overcooling.
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insaneh.,
I have also ridden some in low temps - I believe all is well.
cc.,
That is a recurring speculation - that BM 'knew' what they are doing when the subject of oil temps has been discussed several times over the years. And they are right - provided you are moving. Sync your throttle bodies with a few box fans in your garage and wonder what the oil temp is - it will surprise you
Ride with a gauge and you will be surpised how much the temp varies and just how much the ambient temp affects the oil. Enjoy a days ride - at 195 degrees, hit a 4 or 5 lights that have you stopped with some 25 mph riding between them and 250 starts to show - that begins to get my attention.
I have also ridden some in low temps - I believe all is well.
cc.,
That is a recurring speculation - that BM 'knew' what they are doing when the subject of oil temps has been discussed several times over the years. And they are right - provided you are moving. Sync your throttle bodies with a few box fans in your garage and wonder what the oil temp is - it will surprise you
Ride with a gauge and you will be surpised how much the temp varies and just how much the ambient temp affects the oil. Enjoy a days ride - at 195 degrees, hit a 4 or 5 lights that have you stopped with some 25 mph riding between them and 250 starts to show - that begins to get my attention.
Member #192
"Life is a curve!"
"Life is a curve!"
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insanehussain
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more food for thought. thank you for sharing your observations.CycleRob wrote:You may have already noticed a milky/cloudy oil window - - - a sure sign your motor is NOT getting hot enough.
in the three winters this bike has seen, i have never, ever had a milky/cloudy oil sight glass. (not anal about oil, i just can't help myself... i gotta look down there at least once a day!)
to some extent i am cognizant of the over cooling effect (just don't have a gauge to quantify it). to mitigate, i idle the engine for at least a couple of minutes before pulling off and take a longer route to the ramp which buys me some idle time at 3/4 traffic lights. i also have the benefit of heated basement parking at my condo... so the engine block is relatively warm to start with. i also pick up the rpms with lower gears in the latter stages of my commute in interests of keeping up the temps.
the oil temp gauge thing just haven't moved high enough on the project priority list. i'm going to have to trust my instincts (now bolstered with helpful observations from you all) in the interim.
gracias.