1150 Fuel Delivery issue

[cgguy09]

Hey guys,
Long time no see! I recently wrapped up the TAT on my G650x! Hell of a trip, let me tell you. But when I got to my new Duty location, I received my 1150 and I've been having some issues. Here is the break down:

My bike seemed to be chocking/hesitating at WOT. So after a brief inspection I did a few things: (1) I was missing a vacuum cap, so I replaced it. (2) I tightened the O2 exhaust sensor (3) I got new gas. After all three she ran like a charm!!!!

About a week later I noticed it again. (yada yada yada) Long story short, I filled up the tank & it's perfect.

Here's the break down:

Bike: 2004 BMW R1150R Rockster (twin spark)

Overarching Conclusion: Fuel Delivery Issue

Symptoms: My bike starts to choke at 2/5 of a tank or going up steep Seattle hills at 1/2 a tank.

History: I rode the bike from eastern TN to MO with no issues. I did all the work on it myself, save the fuel filter. I had my local BMW dealership do it.

Theories: Bad fuel pump? kinked fuel intake lines? clogged filter? Bad repair work?

Solutions: (1)Take it to a BMW dealer up here & have them look at it. (Try to get my old one to pay for it if it's determined they messed up). (2) Take it apart myself & inspect it (Will likely void any work done by my BMW dealership. (3) Call my old dealership & ask for their input (I have a fairly good relationship with them).

Thanks for the tips friends!

-cFogs

[peels]

still have the charcoal canister? could be backed up.

otherwise... if its only happening when the fuel level gets low, id almost bet it was pump/filter related....

[cgguy09]

Peelz, Thanks for the response! It did have a canister up until about 6 months ago. When I got it, I quickly removed it...The presence of the canister is what actually what prompted me to have the Fuel filter changed...(That and the 30k mile).

Is there any sounds I should be listening for in the pump? or any other activity I could do before taking off the tank and pulling the pump assembly?

Thanks!

[kirby]

Did you change the filter yourself?
It really seems to indicate a feed problem. I can think of little else that would fit the symptoms

[cgguy09]

Did you change the filter yourself?
It really seems to indicate a feed problem. I can think of little else that would fit the symptoms

No, this is the only part on the bike I didn't touch. I had Gateway BMW do it. They have a pretty good reputation amongst the riders in the Mid West.

Doesn't mean they didn't make a mistake! I'll probably reach out & call them.

[cgguy09]

Could it be the pump beginning to overheat? I know at the 1/2 way point the pump is no longer fully submerged in the gas & that it uses the gas the cool itself (through heat dissipation). I haven't heard any funny noise though from it, which is often a sign of a failing pump

[kirby]

Good place to start.
If they won't do anything then is not that hard to pull the tank and remove the assembly yourself. The pick up end of the hose has a sleeve type filter and when you install the pump and pluming into the tank it might?! (is ) be possible to get it tangled up so that the sleeve end is not down on the bottom of the tank or pointed wrong (forward).

Unfortunately the only way to check it is to remove the whole thing.
A couple of hours of work.

BTW pump never gets more than a bit warm.

[Roger 04 rt]

When you get the symptoms, open the gas cap immediately and see if there is a partial vacuum. You may have a blocked vent line even if the canister is gone.

[cgguy09]

When you get the symptoms, open the gas cap immediately and see if there is a partial vacuum. You may have a blocked vent line even if the canister is gone.

I had the same thought! I tried that the last time I experienced the symptoms, it didn't change anything. Further I'm able to blow/suck into the vent overflow hoses without resistance.

[cgguy09]

Good place to start.
If they won't do anything then is not that hard to pull the tank and remove the assembly yourself. The pick up end of the hose has a sleeve type filter and when you install the pump and pluming into the tank it might?! (is ) be possible to get it tangled up so that the sleeve end is not down on the bottom of the tank or pointed wrong (forward).

Unfortunately the only way to check it is to remove the whole thing.
A couple of hours of work.

BTW pump never gets more than a bit warm.

Hey team,
I have some thoughts: please let me know on a scale of 100 how crazy I am. (this is inline with Kirby's suggestion the inlet could be facing the wrong direction)

My hypothesis: is that the fuel pump/filter is pointing the wrong direction (meaning the fuel pump inlet is facing forward, instead of toward the bottom of the bike). I should be able to tell by simply taking off the tank and inspecting the location & direction of several main components: (e.g. flat edge on the flange, high pressure output, low pressure return, internal vent, and overfill drain). All this should be possible without removing the entire pump/filter assembly from the tank.

Method: The flat edge of the pump/filter assembly flange appears to line up with the "tank-rest notch" (where the notches where the frame holds up the tank). The high pressure hose is similarly in line with the tank-rest notch. further, both the high pressure and low pressure lines are pointing down. If these are not in the correct location than I know a mistake was made.

Other questions:
(1) Would connecting the high pressure line to the low pressure return cause a similar problem? It seems unlikely, but I'm wondering if the tech could have just mixed up the lines & would that have a similar effect or cause similar symptoms.

[kirby]

Method: The flat edge of the pump/filter assembly flange appears to line up with the "tank-rest notch" (where the notches where the frame holds up the tank). The high pressure hose is similarly in line with the tank-rest notch. further, both the high pressure and low pressure lines are pointing down. If these are not in the correct location than I know a mistake was made.

Other questions:
(1) Would connecting the high pressure line to the low pressure return cause a similar problem? It seems unlikely, but I'm wondering if the tech could have just mixed up the lines & would that have a similar effect or cause similar symptoms.
cgguy09 Basic User Posts: 71Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 7:54 pm



I don't think the engine would work at all if like you described above, but you have a good plan to check the orientation of the mounting plate before removing. If checks out then you need to remove the asyembly and have a look.

[peels]

yeah you might be on the right track thinking the pump is on crooked.


or a line is loose... or... or...


problem has to be in the tank, if it does like you describe, and runs totally fine until 2/5 full.

[sweatmark]

Peelz, Thanks for the response! It did have a canister up until about 6 months ago. When I got it, I quickly removed it...The presence of the canister is what actually what prompted me to have the Fuel filter changed...(That and the 30k mile).

Is there any sounds I should be listening for in the pump? or any other activity I could do before taking off the tank and pulling the pump assembly?

Thanks!

Aside from in-tank items already discussed (I'm paranoid about the in-tank wetted fuel lines and potential for pressure leakage or line failure), my thoughts are:

1. Primary spark plug stick coils

2. Did you cap the throttle body openings originally connected to charcoal canister?

[kirby]

After seeing sweatmarks comment I went back and re-read your post.

So only "sorta" cuts out but not completely! at WFO.
(only??)
That really sounds like it could be stick coils...sorta. Usually first sign of stick coil problems is under heavy load high rpm.

Not all that uncommon.

[cgguy09]

Peelz, Thanks for the response! It did have a canister up until about 6 months ago. When I got it, I quickly removed it...The presence of the canister is what actually what prompted me to have the Fuel filter changed...(That and the 30k mile).

Is there any sounds I should be listening for in the pump? or any other activity I could do before taking off the tank and pulling the pump assembly?

Thanks!

Aside from in-tank items already discussed (I'm paranoid about the in-tank wetted fuel lines and potential for pressure leakage or line failure), my thoughts are:

1. Primary spark plug stick coils

2. Did you cap the throttle body openings originally connected to charcoal canister?

Yea, I thought about the plug stick coils. But when I took it out yesterday I put the bike at all RPMs and all throttle positions. It ran like a dream. The symptoms only seem to appear concurrently with the fuel level being at or below 2/5's of a tank.

Yep, I checked and double checked the vacuum caps on the TB's. They are are good to go!

[sstein]

Did you make any progress on this?

[cgguy09]

Hey team,
Sorry I got sent out of the office for a training and then for a trial and then for leave. (The last one was my choice). Anyway, I've finally got the fuel in the tank down enough to pull the tank and take a look. I should be doing this over the weekend.

I'll report my findings for the benefit of the group.

Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas and happy new year

[cgguy09]

But in short, I've now gotten to the green light (fuel like) on the side stand & its having the same symptoms...Making this the third time the same symptoms have exhibited themselves when the fuel it roughly at the bottom 1/3 of the tank.

[cgguy09]

Those sons of B*^ches at BMW...It was installed wrong. The flat end of the flange was pointing at about 1 O'clock or 2 o'clock...Meaning it was pointing up. So, in weighing whether to take it to a nearby dealership and ask them to fix it (and bill the STL dealer) or fix it myself, I thought "hey, I can fix this easily." Well, it turned out to be a pain & I still don't think I have it right. Also, I made my apartment complex smell like gas & was asked (not nicely) to "stop" by management.

Here is the status: I was able to make it one turn to the left , so the pump is pointing down to the bottom of the tank, but I would say it's not parallel with the bottom of the gas tank. I'm not sure what angle it is supposed to be at. The flat-side of the flange is pointing at 10 or 11 o'clock. I couldn't quite get it at 9 O'Clock on the tank. It seemed the pump itself was hitting the inside of the tank or the tank was too narrow.

I've seen pictures of other pumps that are at the 9 o'clock mark, but those pumps also seem to be of a different design, with the fuel gauge attached. The pump on the rockster doesn't have the gauge attached.

I'm sure this all sounds confusing, but if anyone out there knows what direction the Rockster flange is supposed to be I would greatly appreciate that knowledge.

Thanks for the information in advance.

hugs & kisses,
c-Fogs

[cgguy09]

Okay, trying something here...
Hey team, I have some updates & questions:

In short, I was right in my hypothesis: Those sons of B*^ches at BMW installed the pump wrong. The flat end of the flange was pointing at about 1 O'clock or 2 o'clock...Meaning it was pointing up. So, in weighing whether to take it to a nearby dealership and ask them to fix it (and bill the STL dealer) or fix it myself, I thought "hey, I can fix this easily." Well, it turned out to be a pain & I still don't think I have it right. Also, I made my apartment complex smell like gas & was asked (not nicely) to "stop" by management.

Here is a picture of the part as I found it:


Here is the status: I was able to make it one turn to the left , Meaning the location of that sticker (which marks the flat-side of the flange) is pointing at 10 or 11 o'clock.) So the pump is pointing to the bottom of the tank, but I would say it's not parallel with the bottom of the gas tank. I'm not sure what angle it is supposed to be at. I couldn't quite get it at 9 O'Clock on the tank. It seemed the pump itself was hitting the inside of the tank or the tank was too narrow.

I've seen pictures of other pumps that are at the 9 o'clock mark, but those pumps also seem to be of a different design, with the fuel gauge attached. The pump on the rockster doesn't have the gauge attached.

I'm sure this all sounds confusing, but if anyone out there knows what direction the Rockster flange is supposed to be I would greatly appreciate that knowledge.

Thanks for the information in advance.

hugs & kisses,
c-Fogs