Clutch slipping in high gear

[lguardiola]

Hey guys, I hope someone can give me some info on what could be happening with my bike...I noticed recently (the past month) that the clutch is slipping in the high gears (5th and 6th gear). From 1st through 4th everything is ok but once I get to 5th and 6th (mainly 6th), and I open the throttle the engine with just rev up but it won't go any faster...I have to ease off the throttle and slowly apply it again and it will increase speed slowly....but if I want to pass someone on the rode and I open the throttle it will just rev up and not advance at all...I noticed this past weekend that it won't go any faster than 85mph; trying to go any faster than that and the clutch will slip and the engine will just rev up...

I am hoping it is the slave cylinder and not the clutch that has gone bad....my bike is a 2004 non-ABS model with about 19,500 miles on it...

Hope this made some sense and someone can lead me in the right direction...I really hope it isn't something very expensive and maybe something I can do myself...

Thanks in advance for any help...

[kirby]

If only sliping in 5th and 6th at high throttle its probably the clutch itself. Any noise associated?

I would guess if the clutch was contaminated with oil or fluid, it would slip in all the gears, but I suppose that would depend on the amount of contamination

Any odd smells once you shut down? anything leaking?. A plate is not that expensive but the tear down is extensive with new bolts. If you have to do it read the manual carefully.

mike :-)

[lguardiola]

Kirby...it is very hard to see when it is all put together but I go see some oil where the transmission and the engine attach...I found the plate in beemerboneyard for about $100, and if that is what's causing the problem it won't be too bad to repair...

My bike has 19,500 miles, and I have usually seen that the clutches go bad at around 30k miles....do you guys know of many clutches going out under 20k miles?

[kirby]

;

[kirby]

Kirby...it is very hard to see when it is all put together but I go see some oil where the transmission and the engine attach...I found the plate in beemerboneyard for about $100, and if that is what's causing the problem it won't be too bad to repair...

My bike has 19,500 miles, and I have usually seen that the clutches go bad at around 30k miles....do you guys know of many clutches going out under 20k miles?

Well if the preivious owner was hard on the clutch. The abuse is typically found on a loaded two up and allot of crawling in traffic. I'm very easy on mine 'cause most of the miles are down the road and just me and a relatively light load. I have 180k on mine and its worn very little.

I figure that 19K is awful low mileage for a clutch problem, they usually last better than that even with abuse.

The oil at the mating of the trans and engine is suspicious, pull the rubber plug in the timing hole and look for signs, or pull the starter and have a look. If a seal has gone south there should be evidence there.

:-)

[sykospain]

Split the bike in half and have a proper look.
It's not that hard a job. See YouTube rundowns of the job; links below.
Allow a day to split the bike and maybe a day-and-a-half to put it all together. When tearing the bike down, use your phone or digicam to take loads and loads and loads of pics all the time during the job as to where all the zip-ties that you'll need to cut are, and make sure you know which bolts and fasteners came from where. I use clear zip-top plastic bags with labels. TAKE YOUR TIME if this is the first time you've done some serious wrenching.
Videos tell all, including the pesky slave cylinder job and fitting an EsmirSpacer'ed new plate :-
The full job, 42 mins:- http://youtu.be/HymmP34ipOA
only 3 mins:- http://youtu.be/dRW6SP9eMYs
3 mins:- http://youtu.be/QYJ7SYa924E
Under 3 mins:- http://youtu.be/bj5f-j9IXus
2 mins:- http://youtu.be/IrKr1IiOLvk
Under 2 mins:- http://youtu.be/xXyx4Dwx7Mw

Many thanks as ever to the redoubtable wrencher Chris Harris !

AL in s.e. Spain

[lguardiola]

sykospain,

I just watched all the video you mentioned and I feel a little more worried about all the stuff that I need to remove than the actual change of the clutch itself...lol....there are so many things that need to be removed to get access to the clutch....

I grew up doing mechanic stuff with my dad so I am not new to doing this type of work, but I still do get a bit hesitant....I will for sure watch these videos a couple of time before I start taking the bike apart....

It doesn't seem like this should be a very expensive repair, but the fact that I have to by the tools to get it done it might drive the cost up a bit...

thanks for your help on this...great info...

[sykospain]

Thanks for your rapid response - but don't worry, take your time and you'll be fine.
"Steptoe" ( Neil in London who does all this unaided most months ) says install new clutch pack attachment bolts - but others say that with only 18 to 20 Nm tightness, the originals haven't stretched so there's no need. You will certainly need a pal to help you grab and support things, particularly on the re-assembly job and you should be able to cadge most of the tools needed, like torque spanners, from mechanical mates. But you will definitely need a clutch alignment spigot to centre the new plate on the flywheel. Yet a guy on the ADVRiders forum came up with the brilliant idea of a bit of wooden dowel wrapped a coupla turns with Duck tape. Saves about 30 snoojits in cost for something you'll never need again if you fit an Esmir spacer. See the "Spacer" thread there - all 26 pages ! He goes under the moniker of celeb0001.
Good luck !
AL in s.e. Spain

[lguardiola]

hey guys I need some more feedback...

I was asking around in another forum (advrider) since there is someone there that makes a spacer for the clutch to have a better fit between the clutch hub and the shaft....

It was mentioned that if the clutch is already slipping it would be better to change out the entire clutch kit not just the clutch plate....can i get some feedback on this; whether this is what I should do...If I have to change out the entire clutch kit and the slave cylinder I am afraid I will be spending north of $500....

I appreciate any feedback I can get here.....

[kirby]

Ok, It depends on the amount of contamination for one thing. The pressure plate and flywheel can be cleaned up.

I believe that some will think that if your going to the trouble to tear down then you may as well do the whole thing. I would pull it down assess the contamination and decide. If your going to keep the machine long term it might be prudent to replace the whole thing.

I'm not convinced "hub spacer" are of any value but that is a subjective call on my part and I won't debate it, no point.

mike

[lguardiola]

Kirby,

Why do you say that that the hub spacer would make any difference?....

[kirby]

Well this is a controversial subject, so I won't get into it very far.

Some think that since the clutch hub is shorter than the input (trans) shaft it over loads the splines on the shaft/hub. In all the years I have been around high performance vehicles with manual trans including many small block chevys of 400+ hp I have never seen a clutch hub that was the same length as the input shaft in other words engages the full length of the splines. Ask yourself why would a company engineer something guaranteed to fail? and then keep doing it over and over.

Before I got on the internet forums I never heard much about shaft failures and only occasionally a rear drive failure and that's after being in the BMW community for a long time and being an oil head rider almost since they came to market.

That's all I will say about the "problem". I can only tell you what my experiences are with the stock setup. My Rockster has been de-mated only once in over 180K miles and you have to look very close at the hub or the shaft to see any ware. It's such a small problem that is most likely (sic) related to manufacturing limits between Getrag and BMW as the shafts I have seen pictures of have a noticeable miss alignment problem.

So I submit that if you happen to get a machine that has an engine case at the limit (manufacturing) mated to a Getrag trans that is also at the limit and they add together instead of canx each other you may end up with enough misalignment to cause damage, not to mention the clutch hub added in too. So whats that,1 in 5,000? 1 in 10,000 1 in 20,000, it must be a small number but if you believe the internet numbers its at least 20%! I in 1000 would be .001!

So that's when you hear it said that if you have no failures.."you got a good one". May be a bit of truth in that, but the number of documented failures (not related to abuse) are small as far as I can tell. Seeing an overloaded R1150 is not a rare sight.

Bottom line is that if it makes you feel better about getting a spacer...then do it by all means. If I did not trust my machine..it would be gone.

I'm just rambling now so good luck.

:-)

[captaincable]

Cycle Rob helped me ( I guess it was more of me watching and helping him ) split my bike and lubed the splines as well as other maintenance at 53k, was a lot of work suggest keeping up with photos along the way, I was worried that my clutch was about gone but it measured to have at least half life left , he said the bikes will get over a hundred k on clutch easily normal to hard riding. could be something leaking and making it slip .
anyway "VWdoctor" makes those spacers I believe.
good luck
Mike

PS they make clutch plates that can take leaking clutch fluid without damage to the plate ( beemerboneyard)

[UT R1150R]

My bike (2004 and 53,000 miles) had the same high gear slipping issue.

After a lot of research I got it torn down. Some practical tips based on my experience:

1. As others have mentioned, take lots of pics.

2. Organize, bag and label all parts and fasteners as you remove them.

3. Wipe off some of the leaking fluid with a white cloth. Try and determine if it is motor oil or DOT4 fluid. If motor oil, you probably have a failing main seal (where the end of the crank mates with the back of the engine block). If DOT4, it is clutch fluid.

4. Remove the starter motor if needed to get a (hopefully) sufficient sample of fluid.

5. If it is motor oil (unlikely), prepare to take the bike apart, including removal of the flywheel and replacement of both main seals. Yes, there are two of them. If that's what you end up doing, beg the BMW dealer to let you borrow the seal insertion tools. They make placement of the seals very easy and accurate. The BMW tools are around $600 total so some guys make their own. I made my own, inserted the seals, put everything back together, went for a ride and 100 miles later, they leaked. I got to do the job over.

6. With only 19,000 miles, you probably have a worn out and or leaky slave cylinder or leaky seals near the slave. You can remove the top of the clutch fluid reservoir to confirm if the slave is worn out and contaminated. If the fluid is clear, the slave cylinder is probably good. If it is muddy / murky looking, your slave cylinder is probably bad. In that case you'll have to change the slave and will want to change the clutch hose (from the clutch fluid reservoir down to the slave cylinder) too because it is contaminated/damaged.

7. When you get ready to pivot the rear frame up, remove the two bolts up in the front, which are at the pivot point. I loosened those two bolts quite a bit but the frame would still not pivot all the way. I was afraid to break something by forcing the frame higher but I eventually realized the binding was caused at those two bolts.

8. Buy the alignment bolts that keep the transmission and engine aligned while sliding the transmission back. This helps prevent bending of the clutch pushrod.

9. Once your bike is torn apart you'll easily determine the cause. I suspect it is a case of the slave cylinder leaking DOT4 fluid, which then travels down the rod to the clutch assembly where it is then flung outward by centrifugal force, contaminating your clutch. That was the case with my bike.

10. The slave cylinder is about $150 if I remember correctly. I picked mine up from BMW Boneyard and was happy with it, since it came with gaskets and new banjo bolt washers.

11. I did some preventive maintenance during my clutch replacement. I replaced the transmission seals at the slave cylinder and main output shaft. As I already mentioned, I also replaced both main seals at the crank. I also put in an aftermarket Siebenrock clutch that supposedly will work if contaminated by oil, DOT fluid etc. most people consider that overkill and they are probably correct. I didn't mind spending a little extra just in case. Also, I didn't want to do this again.

12. I only replaced one of the pressure plates. I don't remember which one but it was the one that was clearly in worse shape. It had a lot of blue burn spots on it. The other was fine. I just washed it a few times with hot water and detergent.

There are more details of course but I hope those tips are helpful.

I didn't notice where you live but if it's nearby me (SLC, UT), I'd be happy to help you.

Edited to add: I just paid a little more attention and realized you live in GA. Too far to come help but feel free to PM mr if you have any questions.

[lguardiola]

Hey guys, I have yet to do any work on my bike as Mr. Obama has yet to return me my money but today I removed the starter and there seems to be quite a bit of oil in there...I would like to say that it's DOT4 fluid but it looks like engine oil to me...based on some earlier comments it was mentioned that if was engine oil it could be the main seals with the engine...

Any thoughts/comments/tips/suggestions/prayers and all is welcomed...Here are some pics...thanks for any info...

[sweatmark]

My bike (2004 and 53,000 miles) had the same high gear slipping issue.

After a lot of research I got it torn down. Some practical tips based on my experience:

1. As others have mentioned, take lots of pics.

2. Organize, bag and label all parts and fasteners as you remove them.

3. Wipe off some of the leaking fluid with a white cloth. Try and determine if it is motor oil or DOT4 fluid. If motor oil, you probably have a failing main seal (where the end of the crank mates with the back of the engine block). If DOT4, it is clutch fluid.

...

Excellent post! Thanks for sharing vital information in clear, concise manner.
Bookmarked topic because of this response.

[carl1957]

For what it's worth, I don't rely on pics. They are so difficult to make out. Using a small spiral note pad, I make illustrations, and write notes. Also, I use sandwich bags for groups of nuts and bolts, small parts, the bag being labeled. This works for me. Plan not to remember anything, write it down!

[peels]

If you think its dot4 fluid, Check for a leaky slave cylinder.

EDIT: Oh, you say it LOOKS like engine oil. MY bad.

[lguardiola]

Hey guys its been a while since I last messaged here....I wish I could say that I have fixed my R and that its back up and running, but things just got in the way and the time (and $$$) never quite came up....I have recently taken the bike apart and I have removed the clutch and its hard to say where the oil is coming from....I know some of you mentioned that once I took it apart it would be easy to see where the oil was leaking from....there seems to be oil around the some of the engine seals and gearbox seals, but that is the entire clutch housing...its all full of oil....I removed the slave cylinder hoping that it was the one causing the problem but to me it seems like it in good condition (oil is pretty clean in there)....here are some pics that I took, hopefully you guys can see something which can help me with this....any tips/comments/suggestions are greatly appreciated...I'm hoping I can get it back up and running for riding in a months or so to enjoy the south Georgia winter weather.....

They are a lot of pics but hopefully you guys can see something that I might not...and if you guys would like to see other pics let me know and I can take more and upload them..

[kirby]

Did you buy this machine new?
Overall its looks to me like someone went overboard on a spline lube job and it contaminated the clutch plate with grease. This is not uncommon for people to put WAY TOO MUCH grease on the input splines. That plate only moves a fraction of an inch and does not need but just a small amount of grease, very small amount.
New plate for sure?? and the pressure plate looks like it got pretty hot but may be able to clean and check surface for flatness. (You could probably clean the whole thing up with mineral spirits and use it but since you got it down and want to keep the machine a new one would be prudent.) Measure the friction plate thickness, I think a new one is about .310" With your miles it is probably serviceable.

I don't see evidence of a significant oil leak. (actually any) The blackness of the inside of the housing is probably due to the hot burnt grease from the clutch contamination.
The clutch master looks like it needs to be replaced. Fluid can migrate down the actuating rod but I did not see any reference to you loosing clutch fluid but if you were it could be a source for sure.

If it was me I'd clean it up and put it back together or if your going to be a long time owner put in a new clutch.

My $.02