Back to the dark side.

[bmwk100]

Whoa, I'm sorry I started problems on the site. I asked the OP for a comparison between his new Street Glide and the R12R because those were my two finalists when I made my last purchase. I'm happy with my purchase of the R but definitely would like to get "educated" about what I missed out on by a fellow R rider. This is not a Harley thread, just friends discussing motorcycles and comparing two bikes.

[jed1]

Bmwk100, Don't blame yourself. These immature rantings were my fault and I'll refrain from future unnecessary comments.

Safe riding to all.

[seangd]

I’ve spent plenty of time on Harleys and I can honestly say that my R12R is safer than any of them. Many reasons really, but the big ones are REALLY big:

1. Riding position. It is un-natural and not geometrical sound to have your feet way out in front of you when riding. The correct position for your feet in terms of control and balance are under you.
2. Weight. Even the “light” Harley’s are ridiculously heavy. Get something like an Electra Glide and you’re knocking on the door of 1,000lbs. So again, for safety and performance a heavy bike is not ideal.
3. Power. What’s the biggest Harley engine making these days in terms of horsepower? 70? You could get the V-Rod which is better, but it’s still a whale.
4. Clearance. With all those low hanging chrome bits and stuff, Harley’s have terrible lean angles. In an emergency you just can’t swerve to avoid ANYTHING really.

If the Harley community were completely honest with themselves they’d admit that those bikes are all about 1 thing: cool. Are they cool? Yes. I understand that. I rode a 9 foot long “Mercedes priced” chopper for a long time. It had the raked out forks, the 300mm back tire, the flame paint job, all of it. And it was good for just one thing, and I don’t need that anymore – I’m married. It handled horribly, couldn’t get out of its own way, and the brakes were terrible. Then you have that 1.5” suspension travel; it’s just silly really.

I do hope that Lost Rider post some pictures and stories soon, because they’re part of what inspired me to get an R12R. His contributions to this site are extensive, and the couple of times I've emailed him with a real question about his own experience he emailed me back with real answers.

Anyhoo, enjoy your Harley, I understand the allure. Not my bag these days, but who knows about the future.

[rokinrider]

I love my 00 FLHT. I'm fortunate to have the best of both worlds, I love twin cylinder motorcycles!! I did ride an XR 1200 this weekend, wow pretty impressive ride.. My buddy put an exhaust and a power commander and its very spirited for a V twin.

[ka5ysy]

OK Children.... TIME OUT .

Go to your respective corners and calm down.

At the Harley shop where I teach Riders Edge classes the owner has a sign in the parking lot that says "MOTORCYCLES ONLY". He makes a strong point of telling everyone that ALL bikes and bikers are welcome there. Heck, they even let me park there on the Beemer

If you are on two wheels, that is cool.

[BigEasy]

OK Children.... TIME OUT .

Go to your respective corners and calm down.

If you are on two wheels, that is cool.

That's the bottom line right there.

I'm a brand tramp as you can tell from my sig line, and there is likely a Ural in my near future

My E'Glide is my first HD and when I was looking at it I was all wound up about how I was going to get 100hp out of it and how much that was going to cost and effect reliability. A guy I was talking with about them finally helped me get my head right with his advice= "buy it and ride it for what it is".

In the time I've had the R12R, (mines an '07 and I've been on this board just about since it started) I've been through about a half dozen other bikes. They are all a little different and fun in their own way. Buy what YOU want for what you want and have fun.

[Bamblys]

I’ve spent plenty of time on Harleys and I can honestly say that my R12R is safer than any of them. Many reasons really, but the big ones are REALLY big:

1. Riding position. It is un-natural and not geometrical sound to have your feet way out in front of you when riding. The correct position for your feet in terms of control and balance are under you.
2. Weight. Even the “light” Harley’s are ridiculously heavy. Get something like an Electra Glide and you’re knocking on the door of 1,000lbs. So again, for safety and performance a heavy bike is not ideal.
3. Power. What’s the biggest Harley engine making these days in terms of horsepower? 70? You could get the V-Rod which is better, but it’s still a whale.
4. Clearance. With all those low hanging chrome bits and stuff, Harley’s have terrible lean angles. In an emergency you just can’t swerve to avoid ANYTHING really.

I'll give one more reason and it should be right on top. BAD BRAKES!! Like most american vehicles HD's have horrible brakes. My buddy just couple of days ago got in to an accident on a HD. He was traveling 45mph and a parked car all of a sudden decided to make a U turn right in front of him. Now i bet you he had at least 2 sec to react and on any other bike he could have avoided the collision entirely or just tapped in to that car a bit but instead he flew for a 50 feet b4 ending up head first on to a pavement. He's relatively OK. Broken leg, some bruises, huge bump on the head.
In any case I'd rather ride a bike that is responsive and fast, than relying on it being slow and hoping that nothing goes wrong on a road ahead of me.

[bmwk100]

OK Children.... TIME OUT .



If you are on two wheels, that is cool.

Speaking of that, how is the new RT? Any regrets? What are the major differences you have encountered between both bikes?

[ka5ysy]

Speaking of that, how is the new RT? Any regrets? What are the major differences you have encountered between both bikes?

Good morning. Actually, no regrets. The RR was and is an outstanding bike. The only two real issues that kept creeping into the mix is that it is not a comfortable bike for 2-up for any length of time, and lack of weather protection gets to be an issue for me at times, although that is not a major driving decision anyway. The SO really loves the rear seat on the RT, and the thing I notice is that she is not jammed against me. That split seat on the RT is great for that, and the upgrade to the Kontour seats and Bakup back rest is a major improvement. Anybody looking for an upgrade to the seat on the RR needs to seriously consider the Kontour upgrade. This is the best money on a seat I have ever spent, period.

The interesting thing about the RT is that, to me, it feels more planted in twisties. It is definitely more stable at highway speeds because of the fixed fairing. One thing that is really noticed on the RR with the GS handguards is that you get steering inputs from wind gusts. The RT simply stays hands-off stable in 95% of the conditions at any reasonable speed.

Another difference is the adjustable windscreen. I dumped the BMW OEM screen in favor of the CalSci because of the great performance on the RR. The RT version is as good as the RR screen, with the added advantage that it only takes about 1/2 inch of up to kill any helmet buffeting, and on cold or rainy days you can run it up fully and be in a nice quiet bubble of dry.

Given the fact that the RT is about 80 pounds heavier, a lot of riders complain it is top heavy and hard to handle at low speed. I disagree totally with both. I can easily maneuver the bike in parking lots and traffic at very slow walking speeds and the bike is not in any way top heavy feeling. I suspect that the major problem that many riders do not know how to ride properly at low speeds. I see this all the time in my Riders Edge classes, and when shown the techniques they are amazed at how well their bikes can maneuver at slow speed. This includes the big Harley baggers, and RT/GS/LT/GT people.

Performance wise, since we all know the RR is the RT-Lite, I find the handling to be comparable. The big RT with the Camhead engine is an absolute joy to play with. Plenty of power, torque to burn, and I have no problem playing with the crotch-rocket crowd on some of our local roads. The ESA is kind of a ho-hum for me as once I set up a suspension, I tend to leave it alone. I usually ride in the "comfort" setting due to the sucky roads we have in Louisiana. The OEM shocks, for now, soak up the bumps nicely. The "Sport" setting is definitely stiffer with good road feel, but gets uncomfortable after a lot of bumps in a short time. It works great for what it is intended for, performance riding. The "Normal" I do not find much different from the feel of the comfort, so mostly never set it that way. When the OEM's go, The electronics will be put in some Ohlins or Wilburs upgrades.

One somewhat bad thing about the RT is that the Farkle Virus is terribly expensive to control. Windscreen, engine guards, rear case guards, HID upgrades, Krista brackets for the RT, GPS mount. Wunderlich paid a lot of bills from me in the last two months

Probably the best farkle for absolute utility is the RT-P fan kit that I have wired to a toggle switch on the handlebar. We have been having 90+ degree weather, and heavy traffic makes for a lot of very slow riding and long stops in the heat. With the fan turned on, the temp gauge never move off its normal position. I highly recommend that upgrade to all RT riders.

On the plus side, since the frame is essentially the same on the RR and the RT, most of the stuff I had on the RR transferred easily to the RT. The intercom electronics, fuse block, etc all were mostly drop-in except some of the control wiring had to be extended to move around the steering head up to the fairing. I added back the original Throttlemeister heavy bar ends that were used when I put the original Gen 1 GS handguards on the RR. The RT has a harmonic resonance buzz in the handlebars at certain speeds that the heavy bar ends damp out nicely. The additional reason for these is that I like to have a bit of friction dialed on the throttle in normal driving around town. The electronic cruise on the RT does not work below 20 mph or so, therefore the Throttlemeisers are low speed cruise control. Essentially I have two modes of cruise, mechanical and electronic.

The only real aggravation is that multi-control wheel for the radio operation. Anybody familiar with the i-Drive control in the BMW cars will find this vaguely familiar. The menu system is quite arcane and you absolutely have to preset the radio stuff before you move as it is a major safety hazard to try and play with it in motion. I quite literally sat on the bike for about 2 hours one morning with the radio manual in hand trying to figure out how to do presets. Something left out of the manual is that the satellite radio has a separate preset memory from the AM/FM/Weather band portion of the system. The iPod interface has to have play lists specifically named BMW-1 and BMW-2 or something of the sort, for the multi-control to work properly. I am presently waiting for the next time I pull the plastic off the left side, and will be interfacing the onboard audio into my Autocom system.

In all, I am quite pleased with the bike, and have put over 4000 miles in the last two months just blasting around town doing stuff as necessary. Bike at almost 6000 miles is turning about 45 mpg in the city, and 50-55 on highway cruise.

Interesting side note: This bike is the first one that I have ever owned that women come up and say how much they love the color (Polar Metalic).

[Lost Rider]

OK Children.... TIME OUT .

Go to your respective corners and calm down.

At the Harley shop where I teach Riders Edge classes the owner has a sign in the parking lot that says "MOTORCYCLES ONLY". He makes a strong point of telling everyone that ALL bikes and bikers are welcome there. Heck, they even let me park there on the Beemer

If you are on two wheels, that is cool.

Why do you feel the need to tell us younger members to take a time out and calm down when the conversation is well over with and I've been completely exposed as awesome to the point were I can't possibly respond? (that would be sarcasm)
I don't see my youthfulness and sometimes childish nature as anything but an asset and will look at it as a compliment to my virility.
But you totally lost my interest at "Harley shop", and my eyes glazed over at "bikes and bikers". I avoid the sheep masses who buy bikes to look cool or for social acceptance and groups of motorcycles in general no matter what they ride, especially people who call themselves bikers. I get to go into a HD shop that's also the other brand bike I have dealer, it's always entertaining to see what the dark side is like there... by entertaining I mean hilarious.

As for all people on two wheels are cool....
If you play dress up like a Pirate to go ride in your leather vest and half-helmet, you're not cool, you're just another person that bought into that "biker" allure in my book.
Being cool has nothing to do with what bike you ride and can't be bought with some overpriced chrome or any brand bike for that matter. Though riding an R1200R doesn't hurt one's overall coolness since it's outside the typical groups of retired BMW riders protected from all the elements behind tupperware in their worn Aerostich one piece suit on the way to the next Big Rally after a stop at Touratech with everything plus the kitchen sink on back in their color matched luggage.
See, it's easy to poke fun at any brand motorbike when spoken of as a group... I'm sure I look pretty silly to many people when all geared up for camping off my bikes... so nobody should take my comments personally. (That is unless you dress like a pirate to ride, then I am indeed making fun of your kind).
Even though every weekend The Clones come out and pollute the airwaves near my home, crowding the roads going 25 mph in tight formation riding to the next bar, I try not to spend too much energy being annoyed by loud shiny bikes as easy as it would be. With their no-safety gear, no-brakes and pathetic handling I just defer to Darwin's Theory of Evolution Natural Selection to take it's course, and it does all the time.

But like I said earlier before my individuality was commented on, who cares what I think of what makes a person happy to ride, I surly don't take myself nearly as seriously as some other people seem to. We are all entitled to our opinions and this is mine dialed way down the best I can, you should see the HD threads on ADV! It's difficult at times to convey fun sarcasm....
With my strong opinions of bikers, I still waive at most riders, even warned an evil gang of Corporate Pirates yesterday of a cop they were about to pass, and always stop when I see any bike on the side of the road..... I'm a real ambassador on two wheels, even if I think you look like a douche. Wouldn't want to give the wrong impression of 12R riders!
Hmmmm, discussing HD's off topic in a BMW forum is quite entertaining, maybe I jumped the gun with my first post!
Hopefully nobody gets their panties all in a bunch because of me talking about various groups of riders in general.


And staying true to my visual nature, here's a photo from last weekend of Chuck, a real cool 71 year old rider who was out there solo riding the trails he helped build over 50 years ago. Now that's a "biker" I can respect.

[bmwk100]

Ka5- thanks for the extensive review of the RT. Very well written. I guess the RT would be an equivalent to the Harley Street Glide as both are tourers. After looking over the bikes, I believe I would move over to an RT before going the HD route. Interesting to compare the bikes nonetheless.

[ka5ysy]

Ka5- thanks for the extensive review of the RT. Very well written. I guess the RT would be an equivalent to the Harley Street Glide as both are tourers. After looking over the bikes, I believe I would move over to an RT before going the HD route. Interesting to compare the bikes nonetheless.

Thanks for the kind words.

One of the fun things about teaching Riders Edge classes is that I get to ride all the Harley bikes during demo days at the shop when escorting rides. All the current Harleys are nice bikes, but just not my kind of ride. I guess I am a totally confirmed Boxer fan against anything. When the K1600GTL demo showed up I took several extended rides on that bike. Nice, but for me, ho-hum.

[fastdogs2]

ka5ysy,

I am glad you are enjoying the RT after switching from the R1200R. I moved from the RT to the R 1200R because the RT was a problem for me in low speed maneuvering, so I have a caveat to your assertion:

"Given the fact that the RT is about 80 pounds heavier, a lot of riders complain it is top heavy and hard to handle at low speed. I disagree totally with both. I can easily maneuver the bike in parking lots and traffic at very slow walking speeds and the bike is not in any way top heavy feeling. I suspect that the major problem that many riders do not know how to ride properly at low speeds. I see this all the time in my Riders Edge classes, and when shown the techniques they are amazed at how well their bikes can maneuver at slow speed."

This may be true if you have the requisite inseam length that gives you the ability to flatfoot the RT. My 2005 had a 32.3 inch seat height. My inseam is 28 inches and that compounded with the width of the seat further spreading my legs, I was not flatfooting, but was on the tips of my boot soles. Low speed maneuvering was extremely difficult for me, since I could not gain any traction with only the very front edge of my boot soles making contact with the ground. I solved the issue by leaning the bike to one side or another and flatfooting/balancing on one foot only. This presented difficulties if the road/parking lot surface was off camber and I was leaning too far over to the side, risking a drop.

This is not meant to argue with you or in any way to diminish your joy with the RT. I am just pointing out that the rider needs to be comfortable with handling the bike. I was not comfortable with the RT and could not see any way to alleviate the difficulty of my inseam deficiency.

Bill

[ka5ysy]

Hi Again Bill:

Your point is well taken about being comfortable on the bike. One must be comfortable with a ride or it will never work. I actually have a 29" inseam and usually manage to get the balls of my feet on the ground if level on the RT seat in the low position. I also occasionally ride some GSA bikes that I end up doing the toe dance with unless I slide off the seat to one side or other. It is not a comfortable bike two up for me, and I have to be focused on the slope of ground getting to stops, so I understand your situation fully. In the last ice age when I learned to ride, I absolutely had to have my feet flat on the ground and knees bent, but over time got comfortable with tall bikes after learning the proper operational techniques. As long as we are on two wheels and having fun, who cares about anything else ?

[fastdogs2]

ka5ysy,

You are absolutely right! If you like the bike and it works for you, go ride it.

I'm just glad there are so many choices for us.

Bill