another victim-clutch splines; beyond disappointed

[chibbert]

Rob will be along soon to tell you an F800 is your answer. He would have been here sooner to tell you but alas, he is riding an F800 not an R1150R.



If it were me - I'd fix it or have it fixed and know pretty confidently that the problem is gone.


And. . . isn't there an attorney amongst us which can head up a class action suit?

And.. . this failure is just as likely on my R1150RS - correct?

[Sander Abernathy]

As for WorkinMan's question, there was an article concerning splines in an issue of BMW Owner's News published by BMWMOA sometime in the last six months. The discussion focused on proper lubrication. Apparently, some bikes that have received no maintenance have rusted splines at 10,000 miles while others look perfect at 60,000 miles. The article discusses proper lubrication, service intervals, etc. It also discusses the relative difficulty of performing the task.

But that is not an item on the maintenance schedule, right? Why would lubrication even be an issue at 10,000 miles unless there was a manufacturing problem.

To me, the worst part about this is BMW's denial that there is any issue.

I have used this example here before, but we have a GMC Yukon XL with almost 90,000 miles. At around 63,000 miles the transmission went, leaving my wife and one of the kids stranded on a busy highway. We do not tow anything, and we had all the scheduled maintenance done. A heavy duty transmission like this should not fail at 63K miles. It was out of warranty, but GM offered us a choice of a rebuilt transmission for free, or a brand new one for a $100 deductible. I took the new one for $100. That was my total cost to fix the problem, including labor. Yes, I would buy another GM product. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect a manufacturer to admit there is a problem if something fails prematurely.

No one said it was an item on the maintenance schedule. Someone asked for information on how to address a known weakness with a mechanical device and I referred them to an article that answered their question. BTW, the article indicates that the spline failures have been an issue since the airhead days and continue albeit at a lower rate than before because the shafts are now nickel plated and beefed up. The recommendation is to inspect and lube the splines at 40,000 miles

If you build 10,000 of anything on an assembly line each one will have a weak link and because of common design, common parts and common assembly processes many will share the same weak link. Manufacturers and customers know this and that is why manufacturers offer and customers expect warranties.

You cited an example where GM fixed a premature failure that occurred after expiration of the warranty for a small co-payment. My parents had a GM car once. A 1980 Pontiac Diesel station wagon. It used a GM manufactured diesel engine designed by Oldsmobile of which 1 million were produced. To say those engines were a catastrophe would be an understatement. It was basically a Chevy 350 repurposed for diesel use. Anyone that knows the first thing about diesel engines realizes how stupid that was. The compression ratios required to ignite diesel fuel ripped apart every one of those 1 million diesel engines. GM took no responsibility. The FTC forced them resolve the problem and they finally agreed to force every owner who wanted to make a claim to go through arbitration. If you won arbitration they paid 80% of the cost of a replacement engine, the same engine that would again destroy itself. Many people didn't win arbitration since the arbitration panel was trained and paid by GM on a per claim basis and liked being paid for something that was so mindless.

The Oldsmobile diesel had two long-term impacts on the US car market: It gave birth to lemon laws and it virtually killed the market for passenger car diesel engines in America to the present day. Quite a legacy isn't it? Particularly following such fiasco's as the Corvair, which gave us Ralph Nader. That's enough response to a claim that GM is responsive and concerned about customer satisfaction.

In October 2003, I bought a new car manufactured in June 2003. It was a very high performance car that produced over 100 hp per liter of output. I was lucky because June 2003 was the first month of manufacture those engines didn't periodically suffer catastrophic engine failure. The manufacturer attempted to blame vehicle owners for the failures early on but eventually started replacing rod bearings, oil pumps, and whole engines under warranty (which was extended to 100,000 miles for the engines in question). This fault was attributed to a problem with the connecting rod bottom-end bearing shells that were supplied by a third party that did not meet specifications. Not only was my warranty extended to 100,000 miles but the catalytic convertors were replaced and when the alternator failed, that was replaced as well and both occurred outside the warranty. The manufacturer, of course was BMW and the car is an M3.

At 103,000 miles, the car runs perfectly and I fully expect that to continue for another 100,000 miles. In my case, BMW also replaced an alternator and catalytic convertors at no charge outside of warranty because they had a high incidence of failure and there was a technical service bulletin published on those issues.

Now if that engine failure problem raised its head tomorrow and the car threw a rod and I had to buy a new crate engine at a cost of $15,000 what could I complain about? It's six years old, has 100,000 miles on it and its living on borrowed time. I bought it hoping it would run 200,000 miles but no one guaranteed that and most reasonable people know that six year-old high performance vehicles break and when that happens it may very well be very expensive. What's my alternative? A Corvette? A Porsche? Both are far more likely to have a significant repair expense than a BMW before 100,000 miles and far less likely to still be a car you would want to drive.

The topic of the thread is a transmission failure at 62,000 miles and you cited the example of your SUV which had a transmission failure at 62,000 miles. I think you miss the point. Comparing auto miles to bike miles is like comparing human years to dog years. Autos are much heavier and parts can be overengineered and no one even notices the extra weight. If the transmission in your SUV weighs an extra 50 pounds to make sure it will stand up to the demands no one cares. The transmission in the R1150R weighs only 39 pounds in total.

Since bikes aren't overengineered to the same extent as cars they don't last as long even though they weigh far less. Let's assume though that BMW has neglected the transmission splines issue and the bikes fail prematurely and there are better alternatives available. Do the facts bear that out? It's hard to say because we don't know the mileage run up on bikes still on the road. However, we can see how many miles bikes are carrying by brand when owners decide to get rid of them. That data is readily available on eBay with two problems. Some bikes are listed on eBay with obviously faulty mileage readings which are either 999,999 or 99,999 miles. Some bikes (Goldwings and Harley tourers) are extremely heavy and overengineered similar to cars and used only for highway travel that involve many miles with very little wear. With these caveats, I looked at eBay data as of this evening for the most common motorcycle brands excluding bikes with listed mileage of 999,999, 99,999, Goldwings and all Harleys.

Here's a list by brand of the number of motorcycles for sale with >62,000 miles as a percentage of all motorcycles listed for sale

Ducati 0/159 = 0%
Moto Guzzi 0/28 = 0%
Yamaha 4/877 = .46%
Kawasaki 4/762 = .52%
Honda (excluding Gold Wings) 9/1361 = .66%
Suzuki 9/778 = 1.16%
BMW 14/222 = 6.31%

Amazing isn't it? 40 of 4,187 bikes listed above are listed for sale with more than 62,000 miles. That's just less than 1%. There are 1686% more bikes of other brands but only 86% more bikes of other brands with more than 62,000 miles. Of only 222 BMW's, 14 have more than 62,000 miles. Of 3,965 bikes of other brands listed above 26 have more than 62,000 miles. BMW accounts for 5% of the bikes in the sample but 35% of the bikes with more than 62,000 miles.

I struggle then to understand what BMW should do in the case of a bike with a spline failure at 62,000 miles. Clearly BMW is the most reliable longest lasting bike (a fact we all knew) but a 7 year-old bike with 62,000 miles and a rebuilt title is a very mature bike. There less than a 1% chance any bike but a BMW even makes it that far yet more than 6% of BMW's last that long. Apparently, BMW has produced a bike of such exceptional durability that any mechanical failure is evidence of manufacturer negligence even if every competitor's bike would have already been scrapped.

Even the most reliable bike will have a weakest part that will fail first in a large percentage of cases. What should the manufacturer do if that failure occurs several years and a trip around the globe after a competitor's bike would have been scrapped and five years and 38,000 miles after the expiration of the warranty? My answer to that question is sell you the parts and install them for a reasonable fee.

Others may have a different view and that leaves a few options. The owner can:

Replace the bike with an identical used bike with 60,000 miles that may last to 100,000 miles for $3,000, or
repair the one he has for $1,500 and continue to ride it to 100,000 miles, or
go buy a new bike from another manufacturer for $8,000 to $12,000 that may also last 40,000 miles.

There's one thing that's not an option. He can't go buy a new bike from another manufacturer for $8,000 to $12,000 that will ever see 100,000 miles.

[Beemeridian]

22

[Beemeridian]

22

[Oilhead]

The Oldsmobile diesel had two long-term impacts on the US car market: It gave birth to lemon laws and it virtually killed the market for passenger car diesel engines in America to the present day

I don't think the latter is necessarily true. I think it might have destroyed the confidence in the consumer for US diesel cars but there certainly was a boom for European diesels(MB, VW, Peugeot) throughout the 1980s.

The lack of demand for diesel cars in the US can be attributed mainly to one thing. The price of diesel fuel. In most countries, diesel(which is much closer to crude oil than gasoline) is as low as half the price of gas. In the US, it is actually more than gasoline. At that price, it really makes no sense to drive a diesel car in the US.

As for your comment about GM, I fully agree. The big three has never ever by any stretch of the imagination been consumer friendly when it came to goodwill warranties. Honda/Acura(especially) was probably the friendliest by a significant margin. That being said, even Acura is starting to tighten that up due to the economy and consumer abuse.

[Oilhead]

Since bikes aren't overengineered to the same extent as cars they don't last as long even though they weigh far less.

Is this a fact or just your opinion??

[Oilhead]

Here's a list by brand of the number of motorcycles for sale with >62,000 miles as a percentage of all motorcycles listed for sale

Ducati 0/159 = 0%
Moto Guzzi 0/28 = 0%
Yamaha 4/877 = .46%
Kawasaki 4/762 = .52%
Honda (excluding Gold Wings) 9/1361 = .66%
Suzuki 9/778 = 1.16%
BMW 14/222 = 6.31%

Why would you intentionally exclude Gold Wing from your Honda data?
Where is Harley Davidson?
To say that the data is seriously flawed due to extremely small sample size is an understatement. Suzukis are more than 2.5 times more likely to be ridden 62K than a Yamaha?

[chibbert]

Absolutely! You should sell it immediately, buy another bike, and join another forum.

I guess I should clarify my earlier post.

The "I would fix it" part was sincere.

The "Class action suit" part was a cross between sarcasm and humor. I have had two R1150R variants and have not been wronged by either one so I would have no basis for wanting to be in a lawsuit. I keep forgetting that some get confused by the use of sarcasm and humor in the same sentence similarly to advanced multiplication and division. I should refrain from combining them in your presence.

The "Is my RS a possible candidate for this problem part" was also sincere.


In any event - I hope that OP gets it fixed and enjoys more years on his bike. If not - I hope he enjoys a plentiful amount of years on whatever bike he should choose to move to.

[CNorris]

Boxermania - thanks for the info and I found it encouraging. I thought it'd be worse. I'll be checking your thread.
Dr. Strangelove - I hope you continue to be on the outside looking in on this. Thanks for the wishes. No R1200 or F800 mostly b/c of cost.
Mr. Abernathy - now THAT'S a reply, chock full of info and research. Ok, BMW's have legendary reliability. Except mine. Wanna buy it? I think they're well-made bikes, though my subjective opinion is that the older ones were better built. Then again, my R75 was dead slow and had wooden brakes. At that level of stress, it should last forever. Like a Farmall H.
Beemeridian - too funny!
If I do fix it, which seems more and more likely, with the encouragement of this forum, how do I know it won't happen again? That's part of my concern here. Doing it once is tough, twice would be unacceptable on many levels. Any experience here?
There is a guy not too far away willing to take mine in on trade for one of his. He does have an '04 R1150R with 36K on it, which is calling to me since all my farkles will fit right on, etc., etc. Man, if the splines went on that, you'd find me on a ledge somewhere...He has a variety of Airheads (see above; good as secondary bike, not main transport), a K1200RS, and an R1200 (probably too expensive and it doesn't really call to me). We'll see what he'll give me for mine.
I guess what's really killing me here is that this is prime riding weather and I'm sitting on the sidelines. Every bike that goes by (and there's many) is like torture. You don't know what you have till it's gone...
Ride a few for me, gentlemen.

[Oilhead]

There's one thing that's not an option. He can't go buy a new bike from another manufacturer for $8,000 to $12,000 that will ever see 100,000 miles.

Wow I missed this one before. You are so biased I don't even know what to say. Do you work for BMW? There are tons of bikes that are not BMW that will run to 6 figures and beyond with virtually no problem. Even sportbikes. This is the biggest myth among people that are not familiar with sportbikes. On the CBR600RR board(and remember the CBR600RR was first introduced in Feb of 2003 so the earliest ones have now been on the road for 7 years), many guys are getting closer to 100K. One guy is very close at 94K. Should I tell him that his bike is going to experience an untimely demise in about 5000 miles? And since I have been a member at that site since 2004, I know that this marvel of an engine that redlines at 15,000 rpm while producing way more HP than my R1150R at about half the displacement has been rock reliable with no known defects. If one cares to do so, I personally don't see any problem this engine going 200K miles and beyond.

Don't get me wrong. I love my R1150R and I love BMWs and will always probably have one. That being said, I'm not a BMW lover, I'm a motorcycle lover.

[Oilhead]

Here's a list by brand of the number of motorcycles for sale with >62,000 miles as a percentage of all motorcycles listed for sale

Ducati 0/159 = 0%
Moto Guzzi 0/28 = 0%
Yamaha 4/877 = .46%
Kawasaki 4/762 = .52%
Honda (excluding Gold Wings) 9/1361 = .66%
Suzuki 9/778 = 1.16%
BMW 14/222 = 6.31%

Why would you intentionally exclude Gold Wing from your Honda data?

Here's why. A quick search showed 32 out of 206 had over 62K. That would be 15.5%. And there were quite a few more of them over 59K and just under 62K.

That would have put a serious dent in the strength of your assertion.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Not quite totally OT here, but certainly comparing apples and Chevrolets...

Whenever the %s are quoted as affecting "about 3%" of bikes, two things come to mind from medicine:

1- If you are in that 3%, then it is 100% for you
and
2- a procedure or a treatment or a drug that had a 3% very serious complication rate would be abandoned or never get into practice. Just too risky

And that said, I think I will go wash Stella! and polish her and ride her today to Sunday dinner w grandkids and continue to prepare for a 4k trip to Torrey in September

Thank you all the posters, lively and very interesting discussion

John

[AndyRR]

how do I know it won't happen again? That's part of my concern here. Doing it once is tough, twice would be unacceptable on many levels.

It will probably happen again around 120k miles. I spent a lot of time trying to fix the misalignment that I found between the engine and transmission. Not sure if it did any good yet as I only have 10k on the rebuilt transmission and haven't taken it apart for inspection.

[Sander Abernathy]

Here's a list by brand of the number of motorcycles for sale with >62,000 miles as a percentage of all motorcycles listed for sale

Ducati 0/159 = 0%
Moto Guzzi 0/28 = 0%
Yamaha 4/877 = .46%
Kawasaki 4/762 = .52%
Honda (excluding Gold Wings) 9/1361 = .66%
Suzuki 9/778 = 1.16%
BMW 14/222 = 6.31%

Why would you intentionally exclude Gold Wing from your Honda data?
Where is Harley Davidson?
To say that the data is seriously flawed due to extremely small sample size is an understatement. Suzukis are more than 2.5 times more likely to be ridden 62K than a Yamaha?

As I said, I think it is unfair to compare a 900 pound tourer that travels only highway miles or cruises the strip with bikes that weigh 40% less and accelerate faster than most race cars. Reasonable people can disagree and for those of you who think Goldwings and Harleys should be included, the percentage of Hondas over 62,000 miles was approximately 4.5 percent and the percentage of Harleys was approximately 2.5%.

You are right that my data is seriously flawed. I would rely on your data which is no doubt superior but you don't seem to have any to offer.

[iowabeakster]

Did you remove the K-LT's and R-RT's from the data too?

I don't see how a milage analysis of used bikes on ebay has much to say about mechanical integrity of product anyway... kind of a non sequitur. Unless, it is to point out that there may be a reason so many BMW riders are selling their bikes once they hit a milage point.

You say that BMW replaced known crappy parts on your car out of warranty. Why not for their bikes?

Do a search on ADVrider for the spline failures on the GS's...
Do a search on BMWST for the spline failures on the RT's...

It's a pretty well documented and much to common failure for a drive-line component. Then incredible part is the number of people who had this happen with less than 20K miles.

[Sander Abernathy]

Since bikes aren't overengineered to the same extent as cars they don't last as long even though they weigh far less.

Is this a fact or just your opinion??

It's just a belief...held by everyone. Car manufacturers believe it and that is why they offer longer warranties than motorcycle manufacturers. Car buyers believe it and that is why they insist on longer warranties. Motorcycle buyers believe it and that is why they accept shorter warranties. That is actually a bit misleading. Motorcycle buyers don't even seem to care about the warranty. Go to an automaker website and try to find information about warranties and then go to a motorcycle website and do the same. On the auto website there is probably a link on the front page. On the motorcycle website you will find about 8 words three or four levels down.

[Oilhead]

As I said, I think it is unfair to compare a 900 pound tourer that travels only highway miles or cruises the strip with bikes that weigh 40% less and accelerate faster than most race cars. Reasonable people can disagree and for those of you who think Goldwings and Harleys should be included, the percentage of Hondas over 62,000 miles was approximately 4.5 percent and the percentage of Harleys was approximately 2.5%.

So it's fair to compare the mileage accumulated by a 50cc scooter, 185cc DP bike, or even a 600cc Racer Replica to the mileage accumulated by a R1100RT, R100GS, or a K1200LT???

If you are comparing the mileage accumulated by brand, all of them has to be included. BMW coming out on top is not a surprising conclusion by any stretch of the imagination considering the limited type bikes they make and the demographics of their rider.

[Oilhead]

Since bikes aren't overengineered to the same extent as cars they don't last as long even though they weigh far less.

Is this a fact or just your opinion??

It's just a belief...held by everyone. Car manufacturers believe it and that is why they offer longer warranties than motorcycle manufacturers. Car buyers believe it and that is why they insist on longer warranties. Motorcycle buyers believe it and that is why they accept shorter warranties. That is actually a bit misleading. Motorcycle buyers don't even seem to care about the warranty. Go to an automaker website and try to find information about warranties and then go to a motorcycle website and do the same. On the auto website there is probably a link on the front page. On the motorcycle website you will find about 8 words three or four levels down.

Yes it is a belief, and it may be a popular one perhaps, but hardly held by everyone. I certainly have a hard time believing that a Honda Accord is "overengineered" more than a Goldwing.

The length of the warranty has nothing to do with the manufacturer's belief of how well the vehicle is made. In fact some of the crappiest cars have the longest warranties.

The length of warranty has everything to do with what the manufacturer believes it needs to provide to sell their vehicle. Honda cars had a one year warranty for the longest time while most manufacturer went to three. Yet they still sold them by the boatload as consumer didn't care as noone questioned their reliablity.

The bike warranties are shorter simply because the manufacturer can get away with it. And I agree with your statement that people care much less about bike warranties. In the US, a bike is a toy, a luxury hobby item. People care less about warranties on a toy than they would with a "neccessity" like a car.

[Beemeridian]

22

[CNorris]

It is worth noting that BMW has one of the best moto warranties in the biz at 3 years/36K, though as Oilhead pointed out, this is more of a marketing and sales tool than a belief in a superior product. I also believe he's right when he suggests that a well-taken care of Honda (or any of the big four Japanese bike makers) will go 100K without major work (their clutches don't count; too easy), even the pumped up sportbikes. I'd imagine one of those low stress Shadow 750's would go considerably further, given the chance. However, that's not my kind of bike.
Andy RR suggests this may need to be done again by 120K. I could live with that, since I'm hoping to be free of the bike by then, but I'm not sure I can just double the mileage of the first failure to figure out the next. Seems too simple a calculation...
I've got a line on a low-mileage Suzuki Bandit 1200 with bags and trunk for a decent price. I'll admit, it's calling to me...