R1200R or Moto Guzzi Griso?

[TAL2GK]

OK, I know this is a BMW board - but I value your input on this cross brand decision. I currently own a '99 BMW R1100R w/ ABS and it has everything I need, but I'm getting the itch after having the bike for a decade. Logic would tell me to buy a new (or gently used) R1200R, but since that's (minus improvements) what I've owned for 10 years, I'm inclined to look around.

When I saw pictures and articles on the Griso, it was LUST at first sight. I don't know if these bikes officially qualify as competitors, but for me they do. I'd love it if the Griso had all the positives of my bike (and its successor) while being as strikingly sexy as it is. Is this like asking a supermodel to be sweet, nurturing, and a good cook? Probably.

FWIW - I ride typically shorter rides, typically without much of a destination, and at least 50% of the time 2 up nowadays. My head says girl-next-door quality and practicality of Bavaria, my heart says the high maintenance supermodel from Italy. Feel free to bash Guzzi if you have a valid reason for it. I want the whole truth. The smallish Guzzi dealer and my BMW/Ducati/Triumph dealer in my town are only 5 miles apart from one another, so that's not much of an issue (though the Guzzi dealer only has a new left over '07 Griso in stock.)

Any suggestions for resolving this dispute? Thanks!

[Meatloaf]

Test ride. Then you'll know which you prefer, the super model or the girl next door

[mogu83]

Just answered your post on WildGuzzi. I didn't want to get into particulars over there and cause a big brouhaha but I don't think their will be a problem here.
I'm a long time Guzzi rider and really love the sound and feel of those Italian twins - but. While the old Guzzis had a different feel than the Beemers the new ones feel about the same only a little down on power. The Guzzi folk make a big deal about the Beemers blowing rear drives apart all over the highway system, but read this list and look for one person that actually had a rear drive blow apart, a few leaking seals but that's it. The Guzzis are having problems with their CARC drives but that's accepted because it's a Goose. The major complaint here are the battery failures, easily cured by a $100 battery made by someone other than Exide.
The Guzzis are having center stands falling off, oil filters backing off, parts dragging in left hand turns, wiring problems (headlight harness) and it seems like their always fooling with TPS and other things that require a computer running special software. Read the Guzzi list - if the people here had those kind of problems they would be down at the local dealer burning the building down.

As far as working on the Guzzis - their just as technically advanced as the Beemers. Generally if it stops your not going to get it going with the supplied tool kit. Bad news for the Guzzi is there are many states without any dealers and many of the dealers have very little actual experience with Guzzis. If I had a new Guzzi i think their are only four or five Guzzi dealers in the country that I would feel comfortable with them working on my bike.

If you look at the age of the bikes owned by the posters on WildGuzzi you'll notice many are on twenty year old bikes, or older, so you don't hear about the problems on the newest bikes, on this list everyone has a R1200R (I think).

Again, this isn't mindless Guzzi bashing because I do love the Guzzi marque, and really miss having one in the garage, but when it came to putting my money down for a new bike I felt safer putting it on a Beemer (Head overuled Heart). I still have my eye out for a nice early 80's LeMan or T-3.

[TAL2GK]

Harry - I really appreciate the feedback (and for tracking me down across boards!) I knew each would be biased in favor of their marque, and that's OK. I like the looks of my bike as well as the new version, but that Griso is just intoxicating. I was gung-ho after reading lots of articles and a brief oh-by-the-way stop by a Guzzi shop on Saturday. Unfortunately since then, I've spent a lot of time reading about problems like what you mention and others since then. I'm not completely unable to work on my own bike (I managed to install a new Odyssey battery on my '99 and change my own oil), but outside of that level of talent, I don't have much to offer.

Also, maybe its just my ego - but the R1200R always feels treated like the youngest brother of the family, while the Griso seems positioned as the angry stepfather. All of which has ZERO to do with riding the damn thing, I know.

Despite having been a rider for 10 years now, my R1100R is my first and only motorcycle purchase to date. I've been pleasantly surprised that decision lasted as long as it did and turned out as well. I won't necessarily keep the next bike 10 years, but nice to know that I might. I don't want to turn out like "PartyCrasher" on the Guzzi board and buy a bike and want to get back out of it in a couple of months.

[deilenberger]

Also, maybe its just my ego - but the R1200R always feels treated like the youngest brother of the family, while the Griso seems positioned as the angry stepfather.

The R12R is the best kept BMW secret in the US.. not so secret in Europe (where it has won numerous "shootouts" - including ones with Guzzi's). It apparently isn't a big money maker for BMW-Motorad-US since they don't push it at all (there were NO R12R demo bikes at the MOA national - not a one.. lots of people came over to talk to me about mine - but BMW-NA/Motorad didn't bother bringing one.)

Tell'ya what - visit the BMW dealer - take a test ride on an R12R. Bring your checkbook. It IS that good.

[Ashveratu]

If I were to go with a Guzzi, I would have chosen the Breva http://www.webbikeworld.com/Moto-Guzzi- ... reva-1100/ as more of a comparison to the R1200R than the Griso. But is seems they are not making that model any more. Shame, it's a really sharp looking bike.

[MikeCam]

I have done an annual head-to-head between Griso and R1150R. So far, the Griso loses only because service support cannot be expected locally. I seem to remember the older (4v) model had foot controls too far forward for me, too heavy for the power output, and a bit of a reach across the tank for handgrips. Otherwise, the bike is nearly the same in form, function, mechanicals, and looks.

[hjsbmw]

Guzzi's have a reputation of being hit and miss in terms of reliability. However, they are the high mileage rider's machine just like BMWs. Many out there with several 100k miles on them.

Their new cardan system is said to be on par with BMW's. Besides, BMWs fail too. Guzzis are on average heavier than BMWs. They are more exotic, which can be good or bad, depending on how you look at it. Both bikes roughly compare in terms of construction and serviceability. The modern Guzzi controls and instruments seem a bit less solid.

It's all subjective IMHO. My super model may be another man's boredom. Best to make yourself happy. I thought about the Breva 1100 and the V11S before I got the R. I got a BMW due to availability in my area. I wish to own a Guzzi at some point though.

[deilenberger]

Does the Guzzi have ABS? That's a requirement for me on ANY bike I'd consider buying. The other nice things available for the R12R are nice - but not an absolute (IMNSHO) necessity.

[celticus]

Would that windshield fit on an R1200R? It might be cheaper than one bought from BMW.

Mark

[TAL2GK]

What year did BMW upgrade the transmission on the R12? Was is model year 2008? I've heard it made a big difference - which is certainly a plus since my R1100R is very clunky and tempermental especially on 1-2 shifts.

Thanks!

[deilenberger]

What year did BMW upgrade the transmission on the R12? Was is model year 2008? I've heard it made a big difference - which is certainly a plus since my R1100R is very clunky and tempermental especially on 1-2 shifts.

Thanks!

I don't know that they did. The 2007's shift just fine, and is nowhere near as clunky as the R1150RS I owned prior.

[mogu83]

What year did BMW upgrade the transmission on the R12? Was is model year 2008? I've heard it made a big difference - which is certainly a plus since my R1100R is very clunky and tempermental especially on 1-2 shifts. Thanks!

If your sensitive to clunky transmissions make sure you get a FEW test rides on the Guzzi (cool mornings and hot rides) before you put your money down. IMHO the transmissions take some 'getting used to' the faithful used to blame the heavy flywheels but those are a thing of the past. Mine used to skip past second into third every now and then, also had a second neutral between second and third sometimes. Good news was it was like that for over 100,000 miles and never a strange noise out of it, just something to 'get used to'.

[TAL2GK]

So is the concensus here that the notorious clunkiness of the BMW gear box has been bred out of the R12? I thought I read in some posts on here that it was only in MY2008's and newer, but I've read so much on both forums I could be getting my signals crossed.

Incidentally, I really appreciate all the input on this - as well as my battery questions on the R1100R sub forum. Because of this (and, truthfully, because I want to list my '99 R1100R for sale) I just send Doug a payment to make me a paying member. When do you guys teach me the secret handshake?

[celticus]

"So is the concensus here that the notorious clunkiness of the BMW gear box has been bred out of the R12?"
They are better than older BMWs but not as smooth as Jap Bikes.

Mark

[hjsbmw]

My Roadster's transmission is way smoother than my Jap bike's. Some older oilheads I have ridden were indeed clunky. I understand that there are also variations within the same model and the same year though.

[TAL2GK]

Thanks - as it relates to the R12 I'm curious about a couple things. (Yeah, I know I should make up my mind on bikes before exploring my options, but its cold & rainy here in NC and I can't help myself.)

I've found a few used ones, which is why I asked the transmission question about differences between 2007 and 2008+ models. If y'all tell me that there's no difference between the gearbox in the years of the R12, I believe you.

1) There's a good condition used one with a Givi Topcase that I'd almost never use. Givi obviously isn't "stock", but how easy is it to remove the case? With the case removed, how obvious is the mounting bracket & hardware?

2) A similar question with a similar used R12 as it relates to an aftermarket windshield. Regardless of utility, I'm of the opinion that a windshield kills the appearance of the naked roadster. If I remove an aftermarket windshield, will the mounting brackets be left and/or holes if I remove the brackets?

3) Finally, which "factory" accessories can be added later? For instance - the used 2008 in question #2 doesn't have heated grips ... which I think are a huge plus, even here in the south. Can I add it later with it being same as stock?

Lots of questions, but you guys are a big help! Certainly worth the membership donation.

[deilenberger]

Thanks - as it relates to the R12 I'm curious about a couple things. (Yeah, I know I should make up my mind on bikes before exploring my options, but its cold & rainy here in NC and I can't help myself.)

I've found a few used ones, which is why I asked the transmission question about differences between 2007 and 2008+ models. If y'all tell me that there's no difference between the gearbox in the years of the R12, I believe you.

1) There's a good condition used one with a Givi Topcase that I'd almost never use. Givi obviously isn't "stock", but how easy is it to remove the case? With the case removed, how obvious is the mounting bracket & hardware?

I seem to recall the Givi mount not being too awful - I think it bolts up to the BMW rack (an option) - so wouldn't be hard to remove if it's ugly.

2) A similar question with a similar used R12 as it relates to an aftermarket windshield. Regardless of utility, I'm of the opinion that a windshield kills the appearance of the naked roadster. If I remove an aftermarket windshield, will the mounting brackets be left and/or holes if I remove the brackets?

Haven't seen one yet where the brackets don't easily remove. And if it uses the BMW Touring Shield mount - that has some resale value.

3) Finally, which "factory" accessories can be added later? For instance - the used 2008 in question #2 doesn't have heated grips ... which I think are a huge plus, even here in the south. Can I add it later with it being same as stock?

You should check with a dealer on this. I imagine all the parts are available, but the coding to have the body module turn the grips on/off may be a problem. See if there is a kit - if there is - you're golden.

Lots of questions, but you guys are a big help! Certainly worth the membership donation.

[mogu83]

If it doesn't have heated grips it would make me question if it also doesn't have ABS. There are some striped down R1200Rs floating around. I would be extremely hesitant to buy a new bike that didn't have ABS, I guess the down side is if you had problems with the ABS system it could cost a few bucks to get it fixed - BUT when the day comes that you need it, it's worth it's weight in gold. A two fingered squeeze on the right lever will bring the R1200R to a stop so fast that you'll have to check that your eyeballs didn't pop out (IMHO )

[deilenberger]

The other downside of the non-ABS bikes is - the resell is difficult (as is selling them new..) The majority of riders of R12R's are mature individuals who (1) have owned BMWs before and are already sold on ABS or (2) are old enough to know that sooner or later they will be in a situation where having ABS would be a "real good thing".

That's the same reason the stripped bikes sat on dealer's floors and were heavily discounted.

FWIW - there are two white '09 R12R's - usual ABS/centerstand/OBC equipped at a dealer in NJ who is going out of business. I have heard numbers of $12.5k, and BMW is tossing in a set of sidebags (you'll end up having to buy the bag-mounts.) Since they're new - full warranty and all that good stuff. One is low-suspension, one normal suspension.

If one of them had ASC and TPM I'd be adding it to my garage.

The dealer is DeSimone Motorsports - if you call, ask for Vince Moffa.