New BMW-Killer from Honda

[omg1010]

Dear all,

in our latest edition of "Das Motorrad" the latest Honda project (1200 V4) was caught during a testride (see some photos here http://www.twowheelsblog.com/galleria/p ... -1200-01/1). Unlike the ugly looking new BMW K models und unlike the new RR this is going to be a bike which could be my next love ... slim and short V4 engine, kardan, ABS and alike are the ingredients to capture me. I don't like the design of the new K-bikes as the engine is a copy of all jap 4-cylinder bikes and the bike looks like an overstretched sausage. The new RR has a chain-drive and this funny looking asymetric design which BMW invented as they needed to find something to make this bike look different from the japs by all means ...

What is your opinion about this bike which will apparently be introduced next year? I think it'll give BMW a hard time!

Kind regards
Oliver

[rdsmith3]

It looks interesting. The riding position looks a bit too aggressive for my body, which will be 50 when this bike comes out.

[bobw]

IF Honda wants to deliver a new platform VS bold new colors there is no doubt it could easily be "the one". I wouldn't make ergonomic conclusions based on a test mule photo as I'm sure the bikes offered from Honda, BMW, et al, will always use a generic profile and the rest of us will have to adjust to it and/or replace seats, use bar backs, etc.

I read this was not a replacement for any current model, but with the VFR, ST and GoldWing all being subject to new manufacturing facilities and/or being due for their next generation, it will be very interesting to see how this impacts a fairly large cross section of buyers. I hope fit, finish and Q.C. take a front seat too, as in this day and age I am tired of reading of some of the nagging problems on our "modern" machines, regardless Honda, BMW,,,,,,.

Thanks for the photos.

Cheers

[Airman]

Dear all,

in our latest edition of "Das Motorrad" the latest Honda project (1200 V4) was caught during a testride (see some photos here http://www.twowheelsblog.com/galleria/p ... -1200-01/1). Unlike the ugly looking new BMW K models und unlike the new RR this is going to be a bike which could be my next love ... slim and short V4 engine, kardan, ABS and alike are the ingredients to capture me. I don't like the design of the new K-bikes as the engine is a copy of all jap 4-cylinder bikes and the bike looks like an overstretched sausage. The new RR has a chain-drive and this funny looking asymetric design which BMW invented as they needed to find something to make this bike look different from the japs by all means ...

What is your opinion about this bike which will apparently be introduced next year? I think it'll give BMW a hard time!

Kind regards
Oliver

I don't, at least not in the US. It looks too much like every other Jap sport bike on the market. Without the V-4 engine would you really give this bike a second look ? Guys looking to upgrade from their RRs seem to be buying that 800 ST. I was drawn aside by the Honda ST1300 recently. They are selling previous year models really cheap in my area and it's a really good looking bike.

[omg1010]

@airman
It looks like this new toy will have some unique ingredients for a sports tourer, it will have a unique engine, kardan drive (most other jap bikes have a chain drive), ABS and some other gimmicks. So it (hopefully) won't be like many other jap bikes out there and be competing directly with the BMW sports tourer models ... And in my opinion the 800ST is not comparable to this new bike.

Honda has recently launched an unrivalled ABS in their sports bikes. So the only thing missing was a sports tourer with enough HP, a unique engine (which many people have been waiting for after the VFR 750) and most of all a drivetrain other than a chain.

So I think this new bike will be interesting to look at. But certainly, at the end of the day it is all about personal preferences and taste.

Kind regards
Oliver

[jacksgp]

Love my oilhead but my next bike will probally NOT be a BMW.

Dealer support/network is an issue and sadly ours is poor IMO. Honda is on my list (st1300) and this new bike looks interesting!

Are you listening BMW ?

[bobw]

Looks on a test mule are not always what you see in the show room and they are the most subjective point on any vehicle choice. As you stated airman, I think BMW having many folks, even on this board, leaving the r bikes for the F series (and other options) is exactly why bikes like this Honda could make a good run at conquest sales. When the faithful who were drawn to the reputation of BMW reliability and technology get tired of FD issues, ignition security failures, untold ecu downloads, airbox failures, etc. and then even the new K13 series arrive with bad switches, etc., etc., the sleeping dog Honda has become could easily wake up and deliver a 1-2 punch to shake things up in their favor. It is too soon to tell. I just like solid competition to keep the sport healthy. Hopefully we all find the one(s) that make us smile.

[iowabeakster]

I LOVE IT!!!

Well, maybe I will love it. The current VFR 800 is currently number one on my list of replacements for my RR (depends on what my clutch splines look like). This new 1200 is the only thing that I've seen that could take that position from the VFR. There is no way I would get a BMW F800 when I could get a Honda VFR800. I've been a fan of Honda V4 motorcycle engines for a long time. I had an early incarnation from the 80's. They have never been perfect (talk about noisy cam chain tensioners ). But they have been really good for a long time. What a glorious motor, they are smooth and powerful at all RPM's. Every year there seems to be some chatter about "next year" getting udpdated or possibly a 1000 version.

The styling isn't my cup of tea (especially the RED one!)...but neither was the R1150R. Styling just isn't that important to me. First thing I consider is the ride, second is the reliability/durability, after that...I just don't really care. I like good looking bikes but, I just can't afford to let that be a factor in my decision making process.

[sweatmark]

If the bike is done right, it will be a sport touring segment winner.

By "done right" I mean:

• no VTEC
  no linked brakes
  ABS as an option
  Givi hard bags as an option
  10+ mile service intervals (oil can be shorter)
  onboard computer standard, including tire pressure monitoring
  heated grips standard
  big alternator

Honda could eat BMW's lunch with such a bike.

[iowabeakster]

no VTEC

The rumor mill says that it won't have VTEC like the VFR800. Instead it will shut down the rear bank of cylinders until throttle is opened up 35%. I would love that system in a family minivan.

Honda could eat BMW's lunch with such a bike.

Honda definitely has BMW's premium priced lunch in mind with this bike. The price looks to be about 15-16K.

Darn. The VFR800 is still top of my list.

[sweatmark]

Honda definitely has BMW's premium priced lunch in mind with this bike. The price looks to be about 15-16K.

Hmm, every company is free to do something stupid. Worse would be to brand the bike Acura and mandate an automatic transmission.

At such a high price range I doubt the big VFR would be a contender. Would it replace both the VFR800 and ST1300?

So there remains an opportunity for one of these manufactures: make a simple, strong, smooth & bullet-proof bike in the 1000-1200cc range; cheap to run, maintain, and crash; capable of both trackday and cross-country tour two-up.

[NoRRmad]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/autom ... L.html?hpw

[iowabeakster]

Gosh...a 27 horsepower thumper in a 412 pound bike...for 6400 bucks?
Royal Enfield is sure to be a hot seller in the US.

Honda claims, that the VFR800 and CBR1000 are not to be replaced. I don't know if I believe it, the rumor mill says that Honda is sitting on a wharehouse full of 06,07,08,09 VFR800s. Nobody is buying them, the dealers aren't ordering them, and Honda refuses to drop the price. The ST1300 is likely history though.

This new 1200 V4 is supposed to show up in more than one incarnation. I'm hoping for a standard w/shaft drive and optional hard cases... at about 10K.

I'd never be that lucky...Honda will likely put it in a chopper before they do a standard...they know the American marketplace well.

[sweatmark]

Honda claims, that the VFR800 and CBR1000 are not to be replaced. I don't know if I believe it, the rumor mill says that Honda is sitting on a wharehouse full of 06,07,08,09 VFR800s.

A friend bought one of these last year. It's a nice bike. Maybe a bit overwrought (the German word "uberladen" seems appropriate), but a good machine.

Wonder if an enterprising individual or two could develop a VFR tweak kit to address the current model's nuisance characteristics: like un-linking brakes, un-VTEC, exhaust simplification, belt drive conversion. Would love to see a stripped-down VFR utility vehicle rendition.

[Airman]

Honda claims, that the VFR800 and CBR1000 are not to be replaced. I don't know if I believe it, the rumor mill says that Honda is sitting on a wharehouse full of 06,07,08,09 VFR800s. Nobody is buying them, the dealers aren't ordering them, and Honda refuses to drop the price. The ST1300 is likely history though.

This new 1200 V4 is supposed to show up in more than one incarnation. I'm hoping for a standard w/shaft drive and optional hard cases... at about 10K.

I'd never be that lucky...Honda will likely put it in a chopper before they do a standard...they know the American marketplace well.

A friend of mine bought an `07, or `08 ( I forget which) ST1300 new from the dealer last week for $10.5k. I checked ads and found that there are various other models like the ST1300 that Honda can't sell. So if they build a 1200 V4 with shaft drive and luggage for $10k, what happens to the $16k ST1300 ? And I don't think there's a market right now for a $16k sport bike of any kind. I think what we're looking at here is simply an R&D exercise, nothing more.

[omg1010]

A friend of mine bought an `07, or `08 ( I forget which) ST1300 new from the dealer last week for $10.5k. I checked ads and found that there are various other models like the ST1300 that Honda can't sell. So if they build a 1200 V4 with shaft drive and luggage for $10k, what happens to the $16k ST1300 ? And I don't think there's a market right now for a $16k sport bike of any kind. I think what we're looking at here is simply an R&D exercise, nothing more.

What makes you think so? I believe BMW is still selling their sports tourer of any kind reasonably well (despite the sluggish economy) hence there is a market for such a breed of bike. And if it carries usefull gimmicks such as a shaft drive, ABS and alike and if it is a stylish bike even more so ...

Off course, it's all a matter of taste. I don't like the newer BMW models. But I also don't like bikes with chaindrive and non-abs. I don't want a bike to look like a stretched sausage dog nor a bike with considerable overweight. So there is not much of a choice presently apart of the Honda ST, Yamaha FJR and alike. I kinda like this new toy from Honda and let's see what it'll look like in reality and how it feels ... I will definitely give it a try.

Kind regards
Oliver

[iowabeakster]

FWIW...Those are Airman's words you qoted above.

Basically, I agree with you Oliver. I'm a ST person myself. I love the v4 motorcycle engine. This is about as good as I've seen. I like ABS, I just wish somebody would a design the system as I would design it. I like shaft drive. But, I don't like bending the driveline with two 90 degree turns.

Everyone's a critic.

[iowabeakster]

More rumors...

Not only will the bike run on two cylinders...it'll also run as a triple!

First up is the variable cylinder use. Instead of running in a V-4 and V-Twin profiles, the engine can also run as a triple. The ECU will select the use of two, three or four cylinders based on engine demand, and throttle input. So, the rider will get smoother transitions between the different cylinder use profiles, which should translate out to a broader range of usable power for the rider.

When in two or three-cylinder mode, instead of the non-working pistons being air springs, they will actually be running in vacuum. So, instead of losing power on the upstroke of the dead cylinder, the empty cylinder will actually serve as a vacuum assist for expanding the active cylinder during its power stroke. So, on net, you get a power increase for the working cylinders.

In addition, the engine, being a V-4, will inherently have the same crossplane effect that Yamaha has used to such rave reviews in its R1 sportbike.

Previously Sweamark joked,

Hmm, every company is free to do something stupid. Worse would be to brand the bike Acura and mandate an automatic transmission.

ask and you shall receive...

We can also confirm the Pan European replacement version of the V4 will have a Porsche-style double-clutch gearbox, that again is more sophisticated than previously thought.

The dual-clutch system allows the box to run in three bar-selected modes - Drive, Manual and Sport.
...
Drive mode will put the bike in charge of all the shifting. It’s essentially an automatic transmission for the motorcycle, and the emphasis will be on economy, with the ECU doing short-shifting to keep the bike in two- or three-cylinder mode.

Manual mode will put the rider in charge of shifting, but the twin-clutch set up will be used to anticipate the next gear change, so the rider can shift as smoothly and quickly as a race bike with a quickshifter.

Sport mode will once again put the ECU in charge of shifting. But this mode is designed to run to the redline in every gear, giving you peak HP–which is rumored to approach 200HP–and torque as much as possible, and allowing you to concentrate on steering the bike, cranking the throttle, and moving your butt cheeks back and forth to hang off as necessary.

[jfslater98]

... and let's see what it'll look like in reality and how it feels ...

Yes. Reality. Is anyone on this thread as tiny as the test driver in those pictures? What are we to make of their claimed performance statistics if an Oompa Loompa is the test jockey (literally)? Vern Troyer is practically swimming on that prototype, meanwhile I get on a VFR and it looks like a bear on a tricycle.

No wonder I like BMWs, I don't think Germans make people that small.

[OU812]

The seat looks.....painful.