Dirt and gravel road

[jbim]

Anyone has extensive experience riding the R on dirt and gravel roadS. Is it possible to instal knobbies on the stock rims. Would the R be suitable for dirt and gravel roads in Alaska and the YukOn?

Thanks

J

[ka5ysy]

I have followed GS and other dual-sport bikes into some sand/gravel situations, and some light mud. It works with the warning that the RR cannot disable the ABS. Net result is that you have no brakes if going downhill in loose surface conditions, and have only engine braking to work with, which makes for some interesting experiences if you are following somebody too close! Steering is best done standing, in dirt-bike style.

AFIK, there are no knobbies that fit our stock wheels. I have the Conti Road Attacks, and they do OK so long as no gumbo mud.

In practicality, I have some friends who ride Harleys and Goldwings to Alaska and have done the Haul Road, although I would not care to do that on those bikes.

[deilenberger]

I'd suggest searching for member "Chitown"'s postings. He rides his R1200R in places GS riders (the vast majority) would be loath to go... and he's fitted semi-dirt tires to it now.

[mogu83]

I gone a few hundred miles on hard packed dirt with some light gravel (dry no rain) and the bike did well -- all things considered. The big tires are scary on the dirt or loose stuff when you are running a strictly street tire. Joe Finn, I think, runs Pirelli Scorpions which looks like a dual sport tire and he spends time on the back backroads.
I've considered the R as a dual sport because it really doesn't weigh that much over a KLR. A set of good tires, crash bars around the cylinders and a set of hefty saddlebags (for crash protection) should do it. The low mounted oil cooler would be a problem, one because of exposure to what the front wheel throws up and also because it could become packed with mud -- and the ABS problem. Naturally I wouldn't run an enduro on it but on something that resembled a road I think it would do OK.

[sandycruz]

Tires:

http://r1150r.org/board/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11956

[celticus]

I'm running the Pirelli Scorpions and find them to be a great tire. When these wear out I'll get another pair. I ride mainly on the road and they are grippier than my most aggresive (which grows the longer I ride this excellent bike) riding needs. They never break loose on me.
Mark

[tobes]

+1 on the Scorpions. I've started running a set and so far am impressed.

[VintageDirt]

I've had some success riding DRY dirt roads. The biggest problem with dirt, that I've encountered, is mud. Obviously you'll have a tough time finding traction with street tires on mud. But the worst is when the front fender packs with mud and the wheel stops turning. Kinda hard to steer with a locked up front wheel. Two crashes on mud have kept me on the pavement, turn signals are kinda pricey and handlebars probably shouldn't be re-bent too many times. Good news is the R is a really rugged and nearly indestructible ride.

[Lost Rider]

The biggest problem with dirt, that I've encountered, is mud. Obviously you'll have a tough time finding traction with street tires on mud. But the worst is when the front fender packs with mud and the wheel stops turning. Kinda hard to steer with a locked up front wheel.

Good news is the R is a really rugged and nearly indestructible ride.

I agree.


jbim,

I looked into having custom spoked wheels made so I could fit proper DS tires, but decided not to waste my money. Like others have said, the R is fine in the dirt and on gravel.
I have thousands of off-tarmac miles on the R, and believe that I can go just about anywhere on it with the Scorpion Sync tires.
Are you researching your Alaska trip on www.advrider.com ?







Dirt is good.















Mud is bad.

[TT RDHS]

The biggest problem with dirt, that I've encountered, is mud. Obviously you'll have a tough time finding traction with street tires on mud. But the worst is when the front fender packs with mud and the wheel stops turning. Kinda hard to steer with a locked up front wheel.

Good news is the R is a really rugged and nearly indestructible ride.

I agree.


jbim,

I looked into having custom spoked wheels made so I could fit proper DS tires, but decided not to waste my money. Like others have said, the R is fine in the dirt and on gravel.
I have thousands of off-tarmac miles on the R, and believe that I can go just about anywhere on it with the Scorpion Sync tires.
Are you researching your Alaska trip on http://www.advrider.com ?

Dirt is good.

Mud is bad.

O.K....
But I am very interested in your opinion of the ABS in these situations.
I do not yet own an RR, and I am still undecided on the ABS issue.
I have never ridden a bike with ABS.
But I am an experienced rider, with more than 30 years of street and track experience (300 thousand-ish street miles). As well as an additional seven years of dirt/moto-x/cross country & desert racing experience.(I started in the dirt in '71 & the street in '78)
So, the idea of the (ABS assisted) brakes going away in low traction situations, like mud, scares me.
I don't intend on the RR being used in any real off-road situations, but I do like to explore a lot of dirt roads and gravel tracks.
Thanks for your input on this,
Brad

P.S. And stoppies are fun.
I'd miss that.

[VintageDirt]

I don't have abs, so I don't know. Though I'm perfectly capable of throwing it away on my own.

[Lost Rider]

O.K....
But I am very interested in your opinion of the ABS in these situations.
I do not yet own an RR, and I am still undecided on the ABS issue.
I have never ridden a bike with ABS.
But I am an experienced rider, with more than 30 years of street and track experience (300 thousand-ish street miles). As well as an additional seven years of dirt/moto-x/cross country & desert racing experience.(I started in the dirt in '71 & the street in '78)
So, the idea of the (ABS assisted) brakes going away in low traction situations, like mud, scares me.
I don't intend on the RR being used in any real off-road situations, but I do like to explore a lot of dirt roads and gravel tracks.
Thanks for your input on this,
Brad

Someone with your extensive experience should have no problems doing what you want to do on the R. You'll just need to take all of your experience with natural reflexes and retrain them a little.
It has been a long time since I rode a non abs bike in the dirt so I can't give a direct comparison.

I understand why you wouldn't want ABS in mud, but I do know for a fact that my ABS has saved me many of times while riding entirely too fast on gravel roads through the woods and needing to shave about 40mph off RIGHT NOW to make a blind, tight turn and not fall off a cliff...
The abs does kick in on the rear quite a bit when descending steep roads on loose gravel or big rocks, I sometimes use the engine instead, though with the great ABS I'm not afraid off grabbing what I need even in real loose stuff. The front just doesn't want to wash out....... well, in the snow it does.
If I had a ABS switch, I would still leave mine on almost all the time, but then again, I'm no expert dirt rider just some crazy guy on a streetbike and how I ride is what works for me.

It would be great if you could make the front ABS on, with the rear off.

[Ves]

I have followed GS and other dual-sport bikes into some sand/gravel situations, and some light mud. It works with the warning that the RR cannot disable the ABS. Net result is that you have no brakes if going downhill in loose surface conditions, and have only engine braking to work with, which makes for some interesting experiences if you are following somebody too close! Steering is best done standing, in dirt-bike style.
...

Care to elaborate on this? Seeing as I just got the ABS bike late last year, I haven't had it on dirt/gravel yet, so I'm curious. ABS helps keep you upright in slippery situations and makes sure that you are slowing down at a rate that doesn't cause skidding. If you brake hard enough in the gravel to cause a skid then they will turn on... but that's the whole point, right, to help you regain traction... When I hit a patch of ice the brakes don't just quit... they turn on and off gradually slowing me down... Why wouldn't they do the same thing going down a slippery hill on gravel? What am I missing?

[celticus]

The ABS on the GS can be switched off can't they? Or am I wrong about this? if so can it be made to switch off also on the R? Has anyone looked into this?

Mark

[deilenberger]

Care to elaborate on this? Seeing as I just got the ABS bike late last year, I haven't had it on dirt/gravel yet, so I'm curious. ABS helps keep you upright in slippery situations and makes sure that you are slowing down at a rate that doesn't cause skidding. If you brake hard enough in the gravel to cause a skid then they will turn on... but that's the whole point, right, to help you regain traction... When I hit a patch of ice the brakes don't just quit... they turn on and off gradually slowing me down... Why wouldn't they do the same thing going down a slippery hill on gravel? What am I missing?

You're not missing a thing. The on/off might extend your brake time IF you were an expert, and IF you could modulate the brake to just before it skids. I'm not. Sounds like perhaps you're not.. and in that case, ABS will help you even if the brake distance is further.

Whenever I hear of someone who said the ABS made them go further before they stopped.. I think "further" than what? Most likely a washout or highside or some other unpleasant happening.

[Ves]

... You're not missing a thing. The on/off might extend your brake time IF you were an expert, and IF you could modulate the brake to just before it skids. I'm not. Sounds like perhaps you're not.. and in that case, ABS will help you even if the brake distance is further.

Whenever I hear of someone who said the ABS made them go further before they stopped.. I think "further" than what? Most likely a washout or highside or some other unpleasant happening.

Ok, I'm following you. Yeah, I would think the longer stopping distance results because a person misjudged how quickly they could stop given the traction situation, and ABS saved their butt. I have that same feeling when I'm in a car in the snow... ABS kicks in and my stopping distance increases (relative to how quickly I thought I could come to a stop)... but I bet you it could be longer if it didn't kick in... or I'd be in a ditch.

That being said... I still don't like the reduced feel that I get from ABS... if that could somehow be fixed then it would be a perfect system...

[Lost Rider]

I agree that very few of us could modulate the brakes better than Der Computer...

[DAV-AZ]

I recently watched, for a short time, a course of instruction on how to ride big enduro bikes, ie R1200GS, KTM etc. presented by an outfit out of Prescott, AZ. One guy with a brand new R1200GS Adventure was experiencing a steep learning curve and kept stalling his engine while traversing a circuit course. On the GS if you want to run without ABS you have to turn it off everytime you start the engine otherwise default on engine start is ABS "on". He would stall the bike and then forget to turn off the ABS. It was immediately obvious everytime he forgot. The drill was to descend a fairly steep loose sand/dirt hill and stop the bike between a pair of traffic cones. With ABS "off" he could manage the drill without too much difficulty. With ABS "on" he couldn't. What was happening was the bike was sensing the tires slipping in the sand enough so that the ABS would engage. When it engaged it started pulsing the brakes as designed, effectively releasing the brakes between pulses and extending the stopping distance. The result was the guy would plow right through the cones. I always wondered why BMW made the provision to turn "off" the ABS on their GS models. After watching the difficulties this guy was having, I think I understand. ABS is great on hard surface roads, but it seems to hurt more than help in the real slippery stuff ie sand/loose dirt. Of course I could be entirely full of it here, and it wouldn't be the first time

[mogu83]

If you want to feel what it's like, drive across a dirt parking lot, get up a little speed, and try to lock up the rear wheel. I guess that would be a good idea for anyone with ABS just to see what it feels like when it kicks in. For years I rode a Moto Guzzi with linked brakes (rear and one disk on the front) that was really interesting going downhill on a dirt/gravel road, when you hit the rear brake the front wheel locked up.

[ShinySideUp]

Here's my $.02: The problem with ABS on non-pavement has to do with the ball-bearing quality of the surface. This is true in general for off-road surfaces, but the situation becomes mission critical in loose gravel.

As the rear brake is applied, the force at the point of contact turns the surface essentially into a liquid and the tire begins to lose traction. The ABS kicks in. And then it lets go and the wheel rolls right back up onto the ball bearing rocks. Then the cycle starts over. Yes, the bike will eventually stop, but maybe not in time to avoid something nasty. Like a boulder. Or a ravine. Or a tree.

But without ABS, the rear wheel locks up and becomes essentially a trenching tool. It pushes the loose gravel out of its way and the wheel sinks deeper into the surface, hopefully until it finds a roadway foundation of something not so loose, like hard-pack, rock, clay, etc. where it can gain real traction and stop the bike a lot sooner.

Perhaps another factor in quicker stops: As the wheel sinks in, it now encounters somewhat of a wall of gravel in front of it, like a wheel chock, to offer more resistance than it would skittering along the surface.

As to the suitability of our R12R with ABS, I've ridden a number of fire roads in Oregon and California, both dry and in the rain, and not had too much of a problem. The key is having a shallow depth to the loose stuff and avoiding mud slicks with our street tires. Most gravel roads and hard-pack are fine as long as the angle of the roadway isn't too steep. And speeds are kept reasonable. And throttle-to-brake transitions are smooth. A light touch on the bars and our low center of gravity help.

Also, I have crash bars!