Major Grunt 117Bhp anyone else?

[boxermania]

For those that might wonder....here is a pic of my former bike while doing can evaluations, the one on the bike is a SS Super-Trap for a Buell. Note that I've done away with the air box and used UNI filters.

http://r1150r.smugmug.com/gallery/33312 ... 6643/Large

http://r1150r.smugmug.com/gallery/33312 ... 6639/Large

After that I went back to the TBR can which I had also painted black and installed a set of Bitubos.......that was the final iteration. She was all she could be.......and I had a blast with her.

[hydra]

For those that might wonder....here is a pic of my former bike while doing can evaluations, the one on the bike is a SS Super-Trap for a Buell. Note that I've done away with the air box and used UNI filters.

http://r1150r.smugmug.com/gallery/33312 ... 6643/Large

http://r1150r.smugmug.com/gallery/33312 ... 6639/Large

After that I went back to the TBR can which I had also painted black and installed a set of Bitubos.......that was the final iteration. She was all she could be.......and I had a blast with her.

boxermania,

wow, that setup is interresting. how's the performance?
no back pressure at all?
what else have you done to compliment that setup?

[hydra]

if you're going to 12:1 then get the high lift cams to suit...!!
the reason I suggested the RS/RT is you can pick up the parts cheap
& keep fairly bulletproof engine reliability.

although saying that,blueprinting is where I always start with an engine, brings it into spec.

Running 12:1 myself but thats with billet cams for my own profiles, larger sodium valves, flowed & ported the heads, forged pistons larger cap injectors & titanium push rods,

as a bonus you might remember that the ecu can be reprogrammed for 8 different profiles, thats why porsche' luv the motronic's so much
usually we keep access to the profile controls away from the drivers (they tend to fiddle )

hey zax1150,

as usual, thanks for the input...more questions...
okay, good point regarding using the RS/RT pistons. 12:1 might get me into trouble if i don't upgrade the other components to help combustion, fuel/air mixture, etc.

what's the cam profile for the rockster? would you run the cams from the RS/RT as well?

and no, i wasn't aware we could change the ECU. but i guess that makes sense since bmw could use the same unit for different bikes.

thanks zax

[boxermania]

hydra

Exhaust systems and their performance follow some fairly general rules, one of which is that there must be some backpressure on the system for it to operate efficiently. The key word here is some, because the amount changes depending on many parameters related to the engine.

At the time of the picture the engine was set-up as follows:

No airbox
Individual UNI filters
3 degrees advance
Autolite 3923 single electrode gapped at .028"
2.25" SS Super Trap can originally for a 1200 cc Buel
Techlusion R259, power optimized on the dyno (mid range and top end)

The bike was very lively, ran strong and clean through the gears. The A/F was a bit on the lean side for my taste, 13.8/14 under power. The filters passed a lot of air and the Techlusion was maxed out.

This was one week before BBII (May 2005) and to be safe I masked off half of the filter surface area. Had a 650 mile weekend and the bike ran great, even though that we wre at a higher elevation than my home base on the Gulf Coast.

Upon my return, I explored the option of larger injectors or higher fuel pressure and after exploring the options/limitations decided that the simplest and easiest thing to do was to swap out the fuel pressure regulator, original set at 3.0 Bar or ~ 43 psi for that of a K bike that is set at 3.5 Bar or ~ 51 psi. I also went back to the TBR can because it was significantly lighter than the SS one and was what I tested on the dyno.

The FPR change and removing the filter mask, brought new life to the bike.....it was a pleasure to tach the bike....and the plugs read the best I have ever seen. That was the last of the mods done to the bike....never had the chance to bring her back to the dyno.

[hydra]

hello boxermania,

more questions...

what did you do to advance the timing?
is the BBll a chip?
and what is the stock airbox doing for the engine? ie: does it act like a reserve supply? or a way to keep it under control before it reaches the intake manifold?
what is the effect when it's removed from a stock set up?

would you recommend your approach versus just going for a KN filter and larger snorkel if i'm going to install the K12 FPR?

are you using the stock TB's?

okay, maybe that's enough questions...sorry

[boxermania]

hydra

1) The static advance of the spark is located behind the front plastic cover on the engine. The mechanism is held by 3 bolts and it's rotation is limited, the most advance over thestock set up you can get is ~ 3 degrees, by rotating counterclockwise.

2) BBII, is the common reference for the Beakster Bash gatherings held every year by this group.

3) The airbox, and you are correct, acts both as a "reservoir" where the paths that feed the TB's are the same length and tuned for the desired torque band, it is also rather restrictive, and convoluted because it has to be designed to fit into whatever space is available.

4) Removal of the airbox, could potentially affect the grunt down low at the expense of higher output at the top. I didn't experience that, or better yet noticed that. Unfortunately I never dynoed the bike on the last iteration, although all the earlier runs only displayed HP and A/F ratio. If I had my way, I would have added a balance tube between the TB's and see if it would make any difference.

5) I don't recomend my approach as I'm a tinkerer by nature, develop a course of action and test/change according to the end product. I do make the information available to the readers of this thread for their edification and potential use if they so desire. I believe that after all this time, probably 3+ years there isn't another R1150R just like mine....

6) Contrary to popular belief, neither the larger snorkel nor the K&N filter will do much for the engine. The snorkel does have a larger intake, but it also has to go past the filter and the rest of the plumbing.....the point is; there is a little less restriction at the front, but the restriction from there all the way to the TB's is significantly larger and remains the same. The same can be said for the K&N filter, actually, I do remember a thread where the two filters where tested and hardly any difference was found. The OEM filter is quite efficient.

Have you seen any dyno pulls that show the "gains" above the stock set up....I haven't.

7) Yes, I used the stock TB's.

I don't mind the questions...........

[zax1150]

finally getting some time to do some road tests

got a question boxermania...what rpm's are you getting @ 70mph 3500?
I know I've sacrificed a cpl of hp to flatten the torque curve.....but she pulls very cleanly

[hydra]

hey zax,

what's the cam profile for the rockster?
you sold me on using the RS/RT pistons but you would recommend cams from the RS/RT as well?

how much does port/polish cost???

BTW, what's sort of work do you do? you said something about prosche and "we"...

[zax1150]

ok hydra .....
best you can get without a monster price tag, would be 1100S cams high lift very responsive profile

cost me nothing but a cpl of spare days to flow the heads @ work
then porting out to suit the new flow parameters, I never polish as it destroys the airflow, if you must polish something then you can polish the exhaust ports

To answer your question, racing engine development, 13 seasons with nismo then 1 season with porsche', then back @ nismo ,

[boxermania]

zax1150

Yes, I run 3500 rpm at 70 mph....is the 2.82 (11/31) standard ratio. I see that you have significant experience with Nismo and one season with Porsche.

Aside from being a gearhead, I'm also a fanatic of the 911 Porsche air cooled engine models. Maybe we should talk, since I'm looking to build a large displacement (hot street) for my 77.

Pm or email me with your location and phone so I can give you a buzz.....so we can compare notes.

[zax1150]

very cool ......always liked the airheads....remember my first 911 a T took me ages to sort those butterfly problems. that was a bad design fault ....best trick was webers to replace the mech injectors, added a comfortable 100hp,

Couldn't hear the exhaust over the intakes.....

BTW '04 R1150R 70mph @ 4250rpm.....2.82

I'm in the UK R&D centre......

[hydra]

ok hydra .....
best you can get without a monster price tag, would be 1100S cams high lift very responsive profile

cost me nothing but a cpl of spare days to flow the heads @ work
then porting out to suit the new flow parameters, I never polish as it destroys the airflow, if you must polish something then you can polish the exhaust ports

To answer your question, racing engine development, 13 seasons with nismo then 1 season with porsche', then back @ nismo ,

zax...you're the man!
and soooo lucky you have nismo's shop and tools and let's not forget...knowledge to work on your ride!
i didn't even think to use the R11S profile. my R11S is putting out ~96 HP from a stock engine. here's the comparison below....
this could be very, very nice indeed. thanks for all your input but i'm sure i'll be back for more questions and advice...i'll keep you and boxermania posted on my progress as well.


boxer cup rep (R1100S)
Bore x stroke: 99.0 x 70.5 mm (3.9 x 2.8 inches)
Displacement: 1085.00 ccm (66.21 cubic inches)
Power: 96.55 HP (70.5 kW)) @ 7250 RPM
Torque: 97.00 Nm (9.9 kgf-m or 71.5 ft.lbs) @ 5750 RPM
Compression: 11.3:1
dry weight: 459lbs
top speed: 140mph

rockster
Bore x Stroke: 101 x 70.5 mm (3.97 x 2.77 in)
Displacement: 1130 cc
Power: 85 hp (62.5 KW) at 6,750 rpm
Torque: 98 Nm / 72 ft lb at 5,250 rpm
Compression Ratio: 10.3 : 1
dry weight: 482lbs
top speed: 122mph

[hydra]

hey boxermania,

so what's your link to performance/bikes/cars?
i really don't have any experience with engine's except for what i've picked up along the way from shop mechanic's and guys like you and zax on the forums. and just your basic run of the mill car/bike buff.

i'm an audio/music engineer and producer, so i'm twiddling with tubes, wires and knobs and crazy artists...

[zax1150]

hydra ...makes me wish I was over there, it's fun to work with a purist

Have always loved getting more out of an engine than they pundits say is possible , would have liked to have had a go @ boxermania's airhead

BTW the l8 model 1100S was actually 1130cc..t

BMW have a habit of keeping a lot of real info very close to their chest

[hydra]

hydra ...makes me wish I was over there, it's fun to work with a purist

Have always loved getting more out of an engine than they pundits say is possible , would have liked to have had a go @ boxermania's airhead

BTW the l8 model 1100S was actually 1130cc..t

BMW have a habit of keeping a lot of real info very close to their chest

zax,

hehehe...i'm somewhat of a purist but how could you tell? these days i tend to research everything before i jump into it. i just don't have the time or money to do trial and error modding. i've got 2 bikes that need some tweaks, so i gotta do it in spurts when the wallet allows...

a little background: (sorry for the long post)
i rebuilt a ratty '73 harley sportster 1000 about 10 years ago that took 5 years to build, mainly because it was a hobby for me. a couple of friends and i put in a stroker kit with 12:1 pistons, then bored to 1200cc. i was younger and had more time on my hands to try out different carbureters/settings, exhausts, ignition, etc. my 1st boxer (R11GS), i bought new in '94 and kept her all stock. FI and ECU's was a whole different beast to me and didn't want to play around with it. i was also doing +100hrs a week at work, so i really didn't have much time to ride, let alone modding the bike out. besides for me, having only owned an '80 kawasaki KZ1000 and the sportster, the bmw was like state of the art and the whole package seemed perfect (engine/suspension/reliability).

so i let the bmw mechanic (Chuck) do all the maintenance on it. at some point i DID want to install an aftermarket exhaust and chip but he would always talk me out of it. talk about PURIST! he told me what i already know, changing one thing changes another, you'll sacrifice reliability, etc, etc.

i bought an '04 replika with only 3250mi in july and i'm having lots of fun with her. on my bmw 328is, i had just finished installing a cold air intake, free flow exhaust and a 3.23 LSD from an M3. and even with these minimal upgrades, the car felt totally different and more FUN to drive. i'll be installing the M3 cams and a shark injector in the spring and she'll really be pulling quite nicely. but having just done these upgrades i started thinking about how much power i could squeeze out of the R11S.

so it's only been the past 8 months that i've been doing my research and learning about the boxer engine. and i just picked up my rockster just 3 mos ago from my brother who just had a baby. he's got a couple of bikes and needed to find a new home for the rock....well i bought her (with the family discount, of course) and she's very happy with her new owner...

ok, thanks for listeining...

no i wasn't aware that the later R11S were 1130cc! how did you get this info?!
i'm curious what you did on the intake side of things?
and how did you remap the ecu? any tips or can you make one for me...

[boxermania]

hydra

I was born a gearhead, in my earlier years, while in the Soth Florida area I did my stint in drag racing with a 318 Mopar and then moved on to B Sedans road racing. Later on I moved, albeit too briefly, onto the ocean racing bit....yes for a young man, I was having a blast and had the time and energy for it.

Went to college and pursued Mechanical/Aerospace Engineering and tacked on a degree in Phyiscs to boot. Since then my working life has brought me into a close relationship with all aspects of large industrial rotating equipment.

At the same time I have continued to pursue my childhood gearhead passion. I couldn't have asked for a better life. A few years back joined this forum and have tried to help and educate those loyal to the brand on the finer aspects of owning and becoming mechanically familiar with their mounts.

Over the last 2 years, due to work commitments I had to significantly curtail those activities, specially the 2 wheel variety, but hopefully after '08 I can slow down and enjoy my passion on a larger scale.

[hydra]

boxermania,

thanks for sharing your tech history. hopefully you will be able to pursue bikes again soon. you offer good info and insight in your posts.

my main problem with tinkering is the time. the music industry is very demanding and most of my tinkering is with frequencies in the studio. but i love modifying my audio gear as well. i have a huge collection of vintage compressors, microphones, eq's, etc that i've been collecting the past 15yrs. and i've modified a few of them to my specs. so i'm naturally always thinking of ways to push things further than their intended design. this seems a bit harder to do in regards to the bmw motorcycles. their cars are a bit easier to wrestle more power out of the engines with bolt on's than it is for their bikes. at least if you're staying naturally aspirated...

all the best,

russ

[csalt]

Enlighten me please,
When you port and polish your heads do all grindings of valves need to be equal? If one intake is not the same as the other does it throw the whole process out of balance? I noticed on an earlier reply it was mentioned that H.P. was lost upon polishing. How so? One would think the smoother the flow the better. Have always understood that most of your gains in performance (after external mods, exhaust, chip and filters) come from the heads. So is P/P of the heads something that can be done at home with patience and a dremel tool or must it be sent out to a good shop? Can anybody reccomend a shop that does boxer heads on a regular basis. And where can those titanium push rods be purchased.
Thanks,
Doug

[Rog(UK) - Yorkshire Dales]

Doug; when 'porting' the heads, a number of factors come into consideration. Surface finish of the port is just one of them and is possibly of lease importance. As I see it, you need to aim for the following:-

1. The shape of the whole of the inlet tract from injectors to valves is of more importance than the finish. In fact a highly polished finish is not as good as a matt or slightly rough finish (which aids in producing slight turbulence in the mixture which in turn helps for more even combustion at detonation). If there is an inlet manifold bolted between the carbs or injectors and the cylinder head, then these should be bolted on and any grinding work also done on these. Of utmost importance is to grind off any lip or edge between adjoining surfaces because these spell disaster for the flow.

2. All dimensions and volumes of the inlet tracts on BOTH cylinders should be as near identical as you can possibly get them. This means that you actually have to measure the volumes accurately and grind off a liitle metal at a time on the head with lower volume. Similarly, the valves should be ground identically. In the racing world, this is called blueprinting an engine.

All this takes a lot of time and apart from using power on the grinding wheels, it takes a lot of time. There are no shortcuts. In the old days (when I used to seek power) the only way open to a penniless student was using a curved metal scraper and emery paper.

If you get all the above spot on, you will have a motor which has balanced combustion. It will be smoother AND will give more power.

Good luck and ride safely,

Rog

[zax1150]

ok guys
if your going to play with porting, have access to a flow bench & someone that knows how to use it....or you'll only get very minor gains

ie: not worth the effort, or worse case lose low end torque...

always grind inlets for maximum vortex....(old trick)
oh & if you're working the heads increase the intake valves!

You can also ionise the fuel......better burn rate!
(an old fav might want to try that hydra/boxermania)

BTW hydra if you're using the std airbox use the RS air tubes (larger bore)
you should be able to pick them up for a cpl of bucks

sheet spark plugs are a good choice eg: Brisk

Boxermania when you were playing with intakes did you toy with a cold air box?....I found the piezo cells make a reasonable difference,
(I'll keep using them till they outlaw'em ...lol)

sorry about the l8 post guys but we have a major project to finish