poor idle/low speed performance...

tor1150r · Post by **tor1150r** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:17 pm

...after the 70k service.

Aside from complete dissappointment with my local dealer in Toronto, my bike still idles poorly (threatens to stall) and hiccups at low speeds in 1st. Once on the highway and above 2k rpm, it rides fine. Dealer is unable to find the problem and fix this - even after a valve adjustment and TB sync during this service.

Can anyone suggest what I can look for on my own?

This sluggish idle started about 10 days ago. My bike went in for the service 3 days ago.

Post by **DJ Downunder** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:21 pm

I'm no expert but it may be the fuel filter..Did they replace that?

My next guess would be a coil issue.

DJ

tor1150r · Post by **tor1150r** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:15 pm

Hey DJ . . .

Changed fuel filter last summer...granted there's about 40k km on it.
I was also thinking of the coils. I'll check those as well.

I just took it out on the highway again. I get good pull/roll-on at speed.

Thx

Post by **Robert_winter_1000** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:01 pm

tor1150r,
I think the best is to change the dealer. DonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t forget you are paying lots of many for this service and I think you have right in much better and higher quality service than what you are getting from this dealer.
Regards
Robert

Capt. Blackadder · Post by **Capt. Blackadder** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:51 pm

The dealer really should make things right, but there are four things I'd check myself:

1) Make sure all three clamps are snug on the intake runners and throttle bodies, especially the ones between the throttle bodies and the rubber inlets.

2) Check that the spark plugs are gapped correctly.

3) Reinstall the spark plugs and torque them to 25 Nm.

4) Hook up a TwinMax, or a manometer, or any synchro device you may have. Verify the synchronization and set the idle to 1100rpm.

Boris Badenov · Post by **Boris Badenov** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:59 pm

Do you still have charcoal canister?
IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve started experiencing seemingly the same problems and it went away as soon as I removed it. That thing was completely plugged...

R4R&R · Post by **R4R&R** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:28 pm

tor1150r wrote:I was also thinking of the coils. I'll check those as well.

Check eBay out - there are two used ones on there RIGHT NOW (ending tomorrow) for like $30 for the pair. I was thinking of buying them in case I need them in the near future!

tor1150r · Post by **tor1150r** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:10 pm

Boris Badenov wrote:Do you still have charcoal canister?
IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve started experiencing seemingly the same problems and it went away as soon as I removed it. That thing was completely plugged...

Canadian bike....we don't have those here. Yet.

I think I'll pull the coils out and have a look. I may grab the ebay ones too!

tor1150r · Post by **tor1150r** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:16 pm

DJ Downunder wrote:I'm no expert but it may be the fuel filter..Did they replace that?

My next guess would be a coil issue.

DJ

I pulled the coils and they look fine (no cracks, corrosion, damage - I don't know what else to look for on them).

Spark plugs were brand new 8k km ago, and they are still snug.

All gear clamps on intake runners are snug. Little rubber caps beneath theTB's are snug and not damaged.

I don't have the equipment to check the TB sync, but the dealer claims this was done on the service performed 3 days ago.

So...I'm stumped, and so is the dealer.
Could this be a simple as the fuel filter (35k km on it since replacing last spring)?
A dose of Seafom yesterday before a brisk run on the highway hasn't changed anything either.

Capt. Blackadder · Post by **Capt. Blackadder** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:08 pm

One thing just occurred to me. Since your bike is an '04, it's a dual-spark, right? I think the Canadian models went twin-spark the same year as the US ones.

This could be a defective stick coil on either of the upper spark plugs. I've read that the only way to tell if it's bad is to unplug the coil wire while the bike is idling. It may appear to be fine on visual inspection, but the damage is inside. The idle will noticeably change if the coil is OK, or the bike may even stall. If you don't hear a change in the idle: bad coil.

Sunbeemer · Post by **Sunbeemer** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:15 pm

Capt. Blackadder wrote:

unplug the coil wire while the bike is idling

Sounds like you could get a real charge out of that!!

Post by **boxermania** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:37 pm

tor1150r

The behavior you are experiencing is usually associated with an air leak, being that the problem is at idle the leak is minor, once the engine speed goes up, the air volume past the T/B's overwhelms the volume of air from the leak. I would check the following, in order:

1) The rubber hoses in and out of the T/B's and where they connect to. If you don't have them in the Canadian bikes, check the plugs on the bottom of the T/B's to insure they are in place and not cracked.

2) Verify that the throttle bodies are tight onto the head. Sometimes on high mileage bikes the spacers crack and allow air to leak in. Spraying WD 40 can help detect the leak, because it blocks (momentarily) the air ingress.

3) Last but not least, check the T/B valves for play on their locating bushings. Use the WD 40 test, as above, on both ends of the T/B shafts to see if the idle improves. Also the same can be verified by gettig hold off the T/B shaft on the engine side and see if you detect any up/down movement, there should be very little movement if any.

Let us know how you make out....

tor1150r · Post by **tor1150r** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:50 pm

Thanks gents.

I'll do the coil test and check boxermania's suggestions as well.

I can't get to it until the weekend...but I'll definitely post with the results.

tor1150r · Post by **tor1150r** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:39 pm

boxermania wrote:tor1150r

The behavior you are experiencing is usually associated with an air leak, being that the problem is at idle the leak is minor, once the engine speed goes up, the air volume past the T/B's overwhelms the volume of air from the leak. I would check the following, in order:

1) The rubber hoses in and out of the T/B's and where they connect to. If you don't have them in the Canadian bikes, check the plugs on the bottom of the T/B's to insure they are in place and not cracked.

2) Verify that the throttle bodies are tight onto the head. Sometimes on high mileage bikes the spacers crack and allow air to leak in. Spraying WD 40 can help detect the leak, because it blocks (momentarily) the air ingress.

3) Last but not least, check the T/B valves for play on their locating bushings. Use the WD 40 test, as above, on both ends of the T/B shafts to see if the idle improves. Also the same can be verified by gettig hold off the T/B shaft on the engine side and see if you detect any up/down movement, there should be very little movement if any.

Let us know how you make out....

#1 Check. No hoses up here. The rubber stoppers are snug and crack-free

#2 Check....all is snug and no visible cracks/deformities (have not tried the WD40 test yet)

#3 Don't know what the locating bushings are or the T/B shafts (non-tech type).

I did fing the auxilliary oil tank though.
There's an inverted filler cap on the bottom of the housing just above the rear pre-load adjuster. Yup...I turned it and loosened it enough to have oil spill out. Looks like motor oil. Why is this oil there? Is this overspill into the airbox (a phenomena I've heard here before). And would this cause rough/bouncy idle and lousy throttle responce in neutral?

allanj255 · Post by **allanj255** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:35 am

There was a recall for twin sparks with rough running and cutting out in 2004 has yours been checked out.
Models: BMW R Model Motorcycle Year: 2003
Number Potentially Involved: 7,000
Dates of Manufacture: December 2002 Ã¢â‚¬â€œ August 2003

Defect: On certain motorcycles (Opposed Twins w/Two-Spark Ignition), the electrical wiring for the oxygen sensor and the ignition lead for the right-hand secondary spark plug have a parallel routing over part of their installation path. The close proximity of these cables may allow the signal from the ignition lead to interfere with the signal from the oxygen sensor wiring. As a result, engine hesitation or misfiring could occur, which could result in a crash.

Remedy: Dealers will re-route the electrical wiring to the oxygen sensor. The manufacturer has reported that owner notification is expected to begin during December 2003. Owners may contact BMW at 1-800-831-1117, Option #4.

Post by **Biff's R** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:12 am

Have you looked at your air filter lately? I have found butterflies in mine before, and replacing it made a hughe difference all around.

It sounds like the idle speed might be set a little low, too.

Sunbeemer · Post by **Sunbeemer** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:31 pm

Sounds like too much oil in the crankase at sometime or other. I have heard of this happening, and the excess oil in the sump is blown back into the air box when the breather hole opens during part of the crankshaft cycle. This keeps things from blowing up, but doesn't normally occur unless too much oil has been added. The oil in the airbox may have clogged your air filter and won't let the engine breathe enough so it is running rich. Take a peek at that air filter to see if it looks soaked with oil.

tor1150r · Post by **tor1150r** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:12 pm

Air filter was dirty, but dry. The filter I saved from the last change (12k km ago) was actually cleaner - so I replaced it for what was probably my last ride for the season today.

Drained about 1 tablespoon of oil from the airbox cavity (plug above the pre-load knob).

Topped up the tank, put some Seafom in. A wash/wax and cover is all that's left for the hibernation in the garage until April. I'll get back to this in the spring.

Thanks for the suggestions folks.