Some Technical Info on Synthetics vs Dino Sauce

[macx]

This is copied from a post on the corral.net, a very popular Mustang website.
It appeared a couple years ago.

so here's info from a friend named Phil Hall... he studies lubricants at NASA.
I really* don't think there can be a better source of unbiased info AT ALL

PART 1:
Today's topic seams to be motor oil related. I am a NASA Engineer at
Marshal Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. My field of work is
Tribology which is the study of friction, wear, and lubrication. In our
spare time, our group collects and tests different motor oils using the
Shell Four Ball tester. This tester tests the extreme pressure properties
of oils. These areas in a motor are cam to lifter contacts, valve stem to
guild, and piston skirts. Over the years we have found synthetic bases oils
to out perform mineral based oils by a large margin. We test the oils new,
after 1000 miles, 2000 miles, and up to 10,000 miles. In a nut shell, we
found that synthetic oils have better wear properties after being run 10,000
miles then mineral grade oils new. Which synthetic do we use? First any
you will benefit from any synthetic, but we use Mobil 1. Mobil by far puts
more research dollars in motor oils then any other company. They are also
aggressive in racing.

Do not run synthetics in a new rebuild. A new engine needs the added
friction allowed by mineral oils to set the rings properly. Chevy found
this out on the corvette. These cars came from the factory with Mobil 1 and
owners brought them back because of smoking and oil consumption (rings did
not seat). Run a good single weight oil for the first 2000 miles. We found
Havaline 30 to be a good mineral oil - in fact we use it for our standard.

The reason Mobil 1 can safely be run for 10,000 miles is because the
additive package is well engineered to isolate grim and hold it in
suspension. This also is why Mobil 1 is expensive. You know - you get what
you pay for.

Part 2:

I listed multi grade oil break down at 1000 to 2000 miles. This is for the
junk oils found at circle K for a dollar. A good name brand oil will last
3000 miles without too much break down. This is for mineral grade oils -
synthetic oils meet government viscosity tests for ratings without adding
thickeners like polymer chains.

Guys here at work run synthetics in motors that have 140,000 to 170,000
miles on them without any more oil consumption them normal. I believe that
you will get a slight increase in consumption in older motors because the
synthetic are very slippery and can get by old rings easier. In these cases
going to a 15w-50 may help, but this is not a reason not to use synthetics.
Older motors need the extra protection. At running temperature a synthetic
will maintain its viscosity, where a mineral oil viscosity is DRASTICALLY
REDUCED.

A test on how well synthetics work at different temperature can be done in
your home. Get a quart of your favorite mineral oil and a quart of a
synthetic. Put a cup a each oil in a glass or paper cup and stick in the
freezer over night. In the morning try and pour the oils out. Next test:
DO THIS OUTSIDE. On an old camp stove put a ¼ of the synthetic oil in an
old frying pan and put it on the stove on the highest heat setting. Cook
for 30 minutes. Now cook your oil for 30 minutes. At this point you will
see why you cooked the synthetic first. As the oil cooks pour some out to
see the changes in viscosity between the oils.

Part 3:

The question of change intervals and synthetic oil has come up. As a side
at work we run oil tests using the Shell Four Ball test rig. This tester
was developed by Shell oil to test the extreme wear properties of motor oils
- cams, piston skirts etc. It consists of three, = inch balls held in a
triangular pattern in a cup with oil heated to 165 degrees. A forth ball is
lowered to the center of the three balls and loaded to 40 KG. The ball is
then rotated 600 RPM for one hour. After the test the wear scar is measured
on the three stationary balls. The bigger the scar the lower the extreme
wear property of the oil is. We use Havoline 30 wt for a base line. We use
this oil because engineers from the past liked this oil, so we have a large
data base.

Looking at data shows new Havoline 30 wt has a wear scar of .0165 inches.
New Mobil 1 has a .0145 inch scar. May not seem like a lot of difference,
but it is. Havoline 30 at 3000 miles has a wear scar of .020 inches and
Mobil 1 at 4000 miles has a .0164 scar. Remember - the bigger the badder.
3000 miles is as long as anyone was willing to run Havoline 30 wt, so its
data stops here. Mobil 1 at 6000 miles is .0167, at 8000 miles is .0188,
and at 10,000 miles is .0194. So, at 10,000 miles Mobil 1 has better
lubrication properties in the critical areas in your motor then a good 30
wt. All mineral oils follow Havoline pretty close - major brands. Some off
brands have a .020 wear scar new. Multi-grades generally have a larger wear
scar as well. This data was from a 5.0 Ford Mustang. Every motor will be
slightly different, but not much.

So, synthetic can handle long run intervals. But, that is part of the
story. You have contaminates to deal with. This is where the additive
package comes in play. This is the expensive part of oils and the reason
synthetics are high priced. Because of the long run intervals of synthetic,
they must have a vastly superior additive package - and they do. Proof of
this is to take 3000 mile dino oil and look at it in a glass jar - then do
the same for Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 will look new compared to the dino oil.
I run Mobil 1 in my new cars to the longest manufactures oil change interval
- usually 7000 miles. This will keep the warranty happy. In my Roadster I
change it once a year regardless of mileage. It run my Roadster about 5000
miles a year. Most people at work run synthetics and do the same. We have
a bunch of cars in the lot that have over 200,000 miles on them and going
strong. I (my wife) never keeps one that long.

I run 10w-30 Mobil 1 in my new Roadster motors (after break-in). Older
motors get 15w-50 because the tolerances are larger. Because synthetics
don't thin down like mineral oils do at temperature, I would be careful
running 15w-50 in a motor with a high volume oil pump. By doing so you may
run into cavitation problems - oil gage jumping wildly. Drag racers
experience this often at high RPM. Drop a wt and it will clear up.

I checked the auto parts stores last night and could not find a zero wt
Mobil 1. It was about 2 years ago they were talking introducing this oil,
so apparently they have in some markets. I stand corrected.

Testing another "magic" oil additive today. It looks and smells like
linseed oil! This should be fun. Additives are another subject all
together. Another day, but never tested a good one - none- zip - zero -
don't waste your money.

Sorry for being soo long. I like synthetics (obviously). If you have been
to the conferences, seen all the tests and data, and read the lubrication
journals you would run nothing other then synthetics.

Someplace else on my computer, I've got tables of data from research
comparing various mineral and synthetic oils - hard numbers that indicate
their resistance to heat breakdown, cold pour point, data on their additive
packages, etc. I'll post it if I can find it some day. Short version, the data
all supports the above contentions about syntheics vs mineral oil.

A less subjective experience of my own - for a time I was parts mgr for a
big-rig truck dealer. Fleets that used synthetics in their transmissions
and differentials got roughly double the mileage between rebuilds than
those that used mineral oil, the trans & diff's ran cooler, the lube change
interval was longer, and often delivered better mileage by up to 1/2 mpg.
In a big rig that gets 5 mpg, even a couple tenths of a mpg is a big cost
deal over 100,000+ miles a year.

[boxermania]

mack

I posted the same some time ago, however, it is good information for the new board visitors as oil issues are always in the forefront.

[The Meromorph]

I don't know how long ago 'a couple of years' really is, and I don't know how old the data was when it was posted.
I do know that the 'four ball test' is not a relevant one for motor oils, greases yes, motor oils no. FWIW, ordinary household bleach performs better than any motor oil in a four ball test. Bleach is not suitable for a motor oil.
Additive packs have changed greatly, even in the last two years. The SL standard is greatly improved over all previous ratings, the SM is even better. Modern 'Dino' oils usually have better additive packs than synthetics (because they need it to meet current standards). Major modern Dino oils are very close to the performance of modern synthetics in almost all areas (except two), and exceed the performance of the synthetics from a few years ago.
The two areas where modern synthetics outperform modern Dino are a) Low temperature flow (and hence minimizing start-up wear in all conditions) to the extent that synthetics are usable in extreme temps that Dino's are not(we're talking sub zero Fahrenheit here). and b) high temperature breakdown, there are few situations where this is critical in street vehicles, but there are some.
The color of an oil after use is NOT a measure of its quality. Possibly quite the reverse. (the 'dirty' oil may be better at cleaning deposits, or holding harmful contaminants in suspension).

I am extremely dubious about relying on a 'tribologist' who makes no mention of HTHS, TBN, or TDS in his evaluation of the life of motor oils, or mention 'polar' molecules, or oil 'group' in his discussion of Dino vs synthetic.

[Arbee]

The secret to any oil recommendations is first looking in the manufacturers hand book
and see what they recommend, some people tell me they use diesel engine oils
because of compatible figures , i say to them read the book first.

[davidsfotos.com]

Post the link / URL to NASA if it's there data shouldn't it be on line?