BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

FYI, this was a pretty good read with objective data and interpretation.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearb ... index.html
My understanding of it is that the SNELL standard creates a tougher lid; DOT creates a softer lid.
The hard lid stands up better but can mush your brain; the soft one absorbs more impact reducing 'mushed-brain' problems.

I am interested to hear the medical people on the board to comment on this article.

Scottybooj / Strangelove; what's your view?

DLS

Well, Daryl, there you have it. The R1150R.Org has no medical members.

As a totally non-qualified former tester and evaluator of soldier equipment, however, I will offer this: if you can pick your head trauma, then you can choose between the differing approaches detailed in the Motorcyclist study. It is clear that the experts are not in agreement about blunt impact, penetration, shock forces and brain sloshing topics.

As an example, the current PAGST helmet in use by the Army was subject to a similar debate - should it maximize protection from 7.62 bullet impact or optimize protection against bullets, fragments, blunt force trauma and the "bell ringer" (explosions, near impact forces, reverb, etc). Further, in the debate about bullet penetrations only, the differing, scientifically backed opinions about how to stop a bullet led to many arguments. Experts could not agree about how a bullet penetrates nor what best slowed/stopped penetration nor how much thickness, softness, hardness was required to achieve a desired performance level.

Last article I read on the subject was that Snell has come around and agrees that their standard forces helmet designs which transmit too much energy to the head. The Snell standard will be revised.

Mike, I think you've hit on a common dilemma. Once an individual or group develops enough knowledge they begin to favor heavily detailed analysis and sometimes completely omit a 'seat of the pants' check of the direction of analysis and conclusions. Here's an example (true event, Spring '83 Hoonah Alaska; conversation between Lee Coon (foreman) & licensed Professional Engineer (PE) at his first day working for the State. Task; repair floating dock that was too close to water level. Paraphrased wording, expletives omitted.

Coon; "Tell us how many cubic feet of styrofoam have to be installed & we'll get to it."
PE; "OK, I'll asses it and let you know."
30 minutes later;
Coon; "How many cubic feet do we need?"
PE; "I'm still working on it, I don't know how waterlogged these timbers are, how much growth is on them or what the salinity of the water is; all them affect how much we'll need."
Coon; "OK, the boys & I will finish unloading & get the gear ready. I'll be back in another hour."
1 hour later;
Coon; "How much do we need to put under there?"
PE; "I'm not sure, what would you do if I weren't here Mr. Coon?"
Coon; "I'd keep putting styrofoam under there until it was level."
PE; "OK, let's do that."

Back to helmets; it seems logical that they should be tested in a way that mimics the majority of impacts encountered in a 'typical' crash. It seems logical that there would be different crash conditions for paved track racers, moto-cross and street; not necessarily a 'one size fits all' test.

I was lucky enough to meet a rider that, without suggesting what I do, conveyed his own experiences in a way that caused me to wear a full-face SNELL approved unit. Based on the referenced article, I'm not sure I'm ready to go buy the $100 helmet that came out on top, but it's enough to make me want to find out more about what the choices are.

DLS

I will offer this as an opinion only...

There is a threshold of blunt force trauma, above which the head is non-survivable. There are also many lesser included events that can lead to concussion of varying levels (and a corresponding brain slosh) as well as some number of potentially penetrating events. Of the three, I'd prefer to be protected from the most commonly occurring event, which is, I think, the reduced impact concussion rather than either the high threshold blunt force impact or the penetration event. Others, of course, tend to favor the worst case scenario protection levels. This is where reasonable opposing factions develop.

Daryl_stamp wrote:FYI, this was a pretty good read with objective data and interpretation.
My understanding of it is that the SNELL standard creates a tougher lid; DOT creates a softer lid.
The hard lid stands up better but can mush your brain; the soft one absorbs more impact reducing 'mushed-brain' problems.

I am interested to hear the medical people on the board to comment on this article.

Scottybooj / Strangelove; what's your view?

DLS

agree with your assessment. I thought the Snell spokesman's response a little off the mark and maybe "market" driven. This is sort of outside of my field, but not far.

Medically I have no argument with the article's premise, that a "softer" helmet that slows the brain's travel better and at lower G forces is more desirable. It just makes sense.

The only fault I did find is it is not cervico-spinal fluid (no such thing) it is cerebro-spinal fluid (CSF). A quibble in the big picture.

I thought the AIS scale was interesting; didn't know about that one, but there are similar scales in many specialties. The scoring totals were sobering and most certainly point out the need for ATTGATT.

I agree with MikeCam's opinion--it's very practical.

The discussion of Closed head Injury in the article is pretty good except they didn't emphasize this strongly enough, you're talking potentially major veg. There are grades of injuries, but very very many result in a handicapped individual.
The sound of the neuro-surgery wards? woosh-woosh-woosh---that's the sound of the ventilators breathing for head injured patients. The rest is silence.
My colleagues have seen this so much that they think I am crazy to ride, absolutely crazy.

John

Strangelove; thanks for the input.
Scottybooj; what are your thoughts?

I ride because it's a blast; reminds me that I'm alive and that in itself is a blast.
I go ATGATT because it's just logical; as I tell non-believers 'Just sliding down the pavement @ 30MPH in shorts & a t-shirt can get you a skin-graft.'
Add some decent gear and maybe just come out with a good story.

Regards,

DLS