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Lance hit it on the head. The founding fathers of this country intended for citizen ownership of guns as well as the maintenance of militias. Nowadays, we tend to equate in our minds the latter with the National Guard, which are equipped on the state level.

One thing is for sure, the United States thus is the hardest country to take over for a foreign power - even if the oceans did not exist to keep us distant from enemies.

Besides, my Glocks will come in handy should my take down shot on a deer does not kill it outright. This happened to a friend who shot one and he had to shoot it again with his rifle, the second shot being to the head. My .270 has 2700 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. I would prefer making the second shot (if needed) with the 500 ft. lb. of energy of my .40 pistol.

Gord wrote:So why do you own a hand gun? Rifles I can understand. Hunting. Food.

Why do you own a motorcycle?

A car I can understand. Transport during all weather conditions, can carry more than 2 people and therefore useful for families. Some cars can match any bike for mpg.

It is about choice, regardless of whether something is used for its original intent or not. Lets PLEASE not get into the whole gun ownership debate in this thread. So far this had been a wonderfully fun thread.

There is another thread where gun control was being discussed

Why do I own handguns? Because I like them. I don't need another reason. I enjoy shooting with them more than with long guns.

Citizens owns guns; subjects can't.

Whoops, that last one was me!

Let me see if I have this correct.

Gord asks an honest question. The subject is a bit touchy for many. However, all of the answers are presented honestly, without passion and without name calling.

To my mind, this is the way it is supposed to work on this board. It makes me kind of proud to be a member of this board. I suppose it helps that all of the responses to Gord’s question are ones I agree with.

Frank

FGanger.... Force=Mass x Acceleration.

Yes, but Acceleration is velocity squared!

An easier way to look at the energy side of things is this: X amount of energy is applied to the bullet (the amount of powder). A bullet with higher mass will have a lower velocity and a low mass bullet will have a higher velocity, but both will have the same energy (at the muzzle).

After that, things get real complicated. A heavy bullet won't be pushed by the wind as much but a fast one won't be as exposed to it. A fast bullet loses energy quicker because of the sonic boom it makes but a slow one drops to the ground faster relative to its forward travel. The list goes on...

It gets more complicated still when you look at the problem of transferring the energy to the target (to cause the intended damage).

Think of it this way: 2 cylinders? 3 cylinders? 4 cylinders? 6 cylinders? Flat? V? Inline? Long stroke / Small Bore? Short stroke / Wide bore? There are lots of ways to do everything!

The .17 M2 is about half the "dream round" I designed back in the 80's. It at least follows the idea of a high quality bullet fired at high velocity to be a good recipie for great accuracy!

Fganger, thanks for your kind words. The beauty of it was he enjoyed every minute of it yet learned such a valuable life lesson! I was at the range with him just today along with some friends. One of my friends hadn't shot before. I was one proud papa to see Clint give her advice on safe handling - Especially when my other friend gave me that knowing grin!

I have to agree with you on the tone of this thread, too. This has to be the most civil thread on this subject since, well, uhm, probably since the board started! :-)

I know it is hard for some who are anti-gun to believe, but we gun-toters are live-and-let-live folks, too. It is just that we aren't going to just take it from anyone who doesn't follow that philosophy and tries to demonstrate something else to us!

Shooting is a martial art, just like any other. Like most true forms of martial arts, it is driven by a visage of peace!

Gord...americans keep handguns to keep the troublesome canucks at bay!

I don't own a gun, but it's our constitutional right. Imagine a gov't that knows it's citizens have no guns what so ever. What if that gov't went off the deep end? Who would reign it in?


Plus, american guns save canadian lives.

fnfalman,

I have a Sauer 202. Originally I was looking to buy a model 90 which is just an unbeliveably gorgeous gun, but I am a lefty and model 90 in left hand bolt action is a real rarity. The 202 is a very ncie, elegant and VERY accurate gun (love it).



P.S.

To all above posters CAN WE PLEAAAAAAASE keep this thread about engineering, reliability and ballistics..........

JToole wrote:Shooting is a martial art, just like any other. Like most true forms of martial arts, it is driven by a visage of peace!

Ohhhh....
I have to explain that about Freestyle Wrestling, but it definately applies here as well. I now have a new 'Anti' counter. Muuuahahahahaha

Gord wrote:I am in some strange mood today. Didn't feel like reading everything on this thread. But did look at all the flags. Hmmm. Loadsa Stars & Stripes. One Australian - but that was DJ being a smart ass. One Israeli - but that was Scottybooj from Long Island. And Jonothan from the UK. So most of the expertise and interest in hand guns is US based. Fine.

Don't yell at me for what I am about to type. Or do yell at me. But before you do, remember this. I think Dirty Harry is a good guy. Big hand guns to put away bad guys are good things. I believe that criminals should be punished and all that stuff. And I will admit I am fascinated by guns. But I would never own one.

So why do you own a hand gun? Rifles I can understand. Hunting. Food. But a hand gun? Why? How many hunters bring home game killed with a hand gun? Is not the sole purpose of hand guns to kill people? I don't see the need for the average citizen to own a hand gun.

Flame me all you want for this. Just don't shoot me!

Nope. No flame if you're asking an honest question.

First of all, in the USA, lots of people hunt with handguns. Many a handgun models that were/are made can be used for hunting. Actually handgun hunting is a very big segment of the sport.

Secondly, handguns are perfect for self-defense. I know that it's a strange philosophy for a lot of Europeans and Canadians and even some Asians, but we Americans think very highly of the concept of self-defense. Naturally a military-type rifle or a shotgun is a more effective weapon for self defense, but consider their sizes and powers, they don't make a good overall package than a handgun.

As an American (of Asian descend who grew up in a war-torn nation), I simply cannot understand why the populace would depend on the police or the military for their own security and safety. They are never there when you are in trouble. Will a handgun automatically make your troubles go away? Of course not, but it sure helps when you at least have an alternative to defend yourself with other than a...whistle, or pleading for mercy from the criminals.

Gord,

Just to add a bit to the mix.

To Lance1150’s comment, “The hunting argument misses the 'real' point of gun ownership. “ He is quite correct, and I would imagine he might add target shooting also. Our founding fathers wanted an armed and ready populace.

To yjleesvrr’s comment, “One thing is for sure, the United States thus is the hardest country to take over for a foreign power.” I recall a story from W.W.II, actually two stories, both refer to Nazi Germany.

Story One - When Hitler came to power he outlawed the private ownership of firearms. The reason was that “we have created the safest country there is.” I know my quote is not quite correct, but you get the point. It was right after the confiscation of firearms that the systematic rounding up of Jews began.

Story Two - Switzerland was a bit slow in delivering war goods to the German military. There were threats from Germany that they might invade Switzerland in order to ensure a reliable delivery of goods. The Swiss response was along the lines of, within 24 hours they could blowup the mountain passes and could have over a million armed, trained men ready to repel any invasion. Being that the invaders would need to go over the mountains, they would need to be prepared to fight the Swiss on skis. The German High Command thought that invasion may not be the correct way to go.

To Shaman’s comment, “Why do you own a motorcycle?” An excellent analogy. It really makes no sense for one to own a motorcycle especially the BMW. That is exactly how non-firearm people think about firearms. Think of all the times you personally have had to explain why you have a motorcycle. Many times even after a long discussion on your part you will still hear, “I just don’t get it.”

To gelbe Kulter’s comment, “Because I like them. I don't need another reason,” I say amen.

To wncbmw’s comment, “Citizens owns guns; subjects can't.” Perhaps an over simplification, but one I agree with.

To JToole’s comment, “I know it is hard for some who are antigun to believe, but we gun-toters are live-and-let-live folks, too.” Absolutely right on.

To scottybooj’s comment, “I don't own a gun, but it's our constitutional right.” The nice thing is a bad guy, breaking into a home, has no idea who is armed and who is not. Also Scott is a soon to be convert ready to blossom. Where would Israel be without private ownership of firearms? No where is the answer.

To 1stBeemer’s comment, “CAN WE PLEAAAAAAASE keep this thread about engineering, reliability and ballistics..........” I feel the same way, except that Gord asked an honest question and we all like him. He deserves an honest answer. Perhaps if it was someone else we would just blow him off or some might loose their cool.

To fnfalman’s comment, “I simply cannot understand why the populace would depend on the police or the military for their own security and safety. They are never there when you are in trouble.” Many times police depts. have been sued when a crime is committed. In every case it has been ruled that the police have no obligation to protect anyone. Sad but true. So why do we have the police? To investigate crimes, apprehend the bad guys, and bring them to justice. During my short career as a peace officer, the above comment was told to me over and over.

Now all we need is a comment from Gord.

Frank

Frank,

I certainly did not mean for any one to be blown off.

I was hoping that perhaps we could stick to the topic of handgun recommendations and our likes and dislikes.

As for handgun ownership, I definitely support gun registration and strict screening process, and yes, it should be allowed, for I am not taking a chance on security supposedly provided by someone else, be it police or military.
Not to say anything bad about any NYPD officers or police in general (I work with NYPD and MTA Police forces in NYC as Communications Systems Engineer), vast majority of cops I know are great people who would definitely do anything and everything to keep us safe, but I am not taking a chance on that 1 guy who might want to finish lunch before showing up.
Last December, crime rates SKY-rocketed in NYC for about 3 weeks before Christmas.
I am not really sure whether it was covered by media, but people were getting robbed left and right, in broad daylight, 2 people I know got robbed in the middle of FIFTH Ave. 2 blocks away from Rockefeller Center at 2:30pm with literally 3-4000 people around. Another guy (3rd) refused to take off his watch and got knife slashed across his face in the same spot.
My girlfriend got robbed 1/2 a block away from my house in a GOOD neighborhood, right in the middle of Bensonhurst in Brooklyn by a neatly dressed and groomed white guy, got her purse ripped out of her hands, got thrown to the ground, scratches and bruises, some blood lost. THANK GOD that was all. (Oh and of coarse nobody saw the lic. plate of their getaway car)
There were at least 15 people around her at the time, 9 were men. The only person who helped her was a little white haired old man who ran across the street to help her up and let her call 911 from his cell phone.
One guy I used to know, a newcomer to this country was working on fixing a laundry machine in one of the projects, was robbed at gunpoint by a 19 year old, and then shot twice in the face because all he had on him was a little under 2 dollars in change.
Now, of coarse I don't carry my pistols in the City (unless I am going to or coming from the shooting range ) but I do want to know I have options when it comes to self-defense that 1 time that I might need it, when I could save my or someone else’s life.

And I do try keep my shooting skills sharp

1stBeemer,

I understood the tone of your posting, similar to Shaman’s, “Lets PLEASE not get into the whole gun ownership debate in this thread. So far this had been a wonderfully fun thread.” I’m sorry if it came across as being something different.

By the by, your tales of the crimes committed in the period preceding Christmas, caused me to think of the phrase, “An Armed Society is a Polite Society.”

Predators, whatever the species, all follow the same rule: Pick on the weakest or the most vulnerable of victims. A predator does not want to get hurt by taking on someone even close to being their equal. What was the saying? “God made man, Colt made them equal.”

Again, sorry if my post came across as being negative towards you in anyway. I’m glad things were not worse for you girlfriend. I know a crime like that must hurt both of you. Her physically, and both of you mentally, but in different ways.

For her she realizes how vulnerable she is, and for you it would be wishing you had been there.

Now work on making a convert out of Scott. By the way, do you know what job Dr. Ruth had when she lived in Israel? She was in the military, her job? Sniper. Let Scott know there is hope for him also.

Frank

Frank, I certainly did not perceive your post as being negative towards me

I said everything said just to show that we all have a lot to say on the subject of pros and cons of gun ownership, but it’s just not what this thread was all about.

And Scott, I am not busy any weekend after the one coming up, let me know your schedule, PM or e-mail me.

Back on topic-

I picked up the Browning Hi-Power in 9mm and only got to shoot 50 rounds but I am in love! What a sweet piece of engineering! I always new they felt great in the hand but they are sweet shooters too! Can't wait to shoot some more this weekend.

I now have what I consider the best two 9mm pistols in the world. Representing the double action/single action types - SIG 228 and representing the single-actions the Hi-Power.

Next is rounding out the .45 collection.

Vann - what do you expect from one of John Browning's last designs?

I see that you think like I do when it comes to firearms. I have a list of guns I want to get to fill out the key calibers. Of course, what I consider "key" is a lot!

Thanks for all the information.

Vann, I have the Browning as well (~20 yrs) but I'm concerned that the single action may be somewhat difficult for my son. I went back to Gander Mountain last weekend to give the H&K and the Sig a closer look. I saw an American made Browning and didn't realize (If I remember what I saw) that Browning makes a High Power in a 40 as well.

Any comments on the American made Browning?

John Moses Browning was a genius with weapons, but the Hi-Power left me cold.

The CZ-75 is where it's at, baby!!! That and the SIG Sauer P225. Those two make the perfect 9mm combination.

I have a CZ-75! It is very nice....