Yikes!!!! Rear wheel almost falls off after dealer service

[wncbmw]

Greybeard - since you are deep into this responsibility thing (something I preach all the time BTW but usually in a political or social sense), tell me what you think about my incident recited in the first page of this thread. I.E. the truck tires rotated and lug nuts coming off. Should I have removed the hubcaps in the station parking lot and checked out the torque on all the bolts? Seriously! Where do you draw the line in responsibility and where does it become paranoia? I have my oil changed at a quick change place so I don't have to deal with oil disposal anymore. Should I check the oil level before leaving their parking lot?

It seems to me you have to have a certain level of trust in professionals or find new professionals to do your work!

[socalrob]

GB,

For what its worth, I imagine we have a bit of a generation gap here. If you are 60 or so (I'm 48 ) and have been riding since maybe the early 60's (thats not meant to be an insult), then you would have had to do your own wrenching as bikes were not very reliable in those days, and took a fair amount of tinkering to keep them going.

Back in my college days I actually split cases on a couple of my 2 stroke bikes, did my own tune-up on 2 stroke triples, and actually never took a bike to a dealer for service.

I admit the new high tech bikes, 4 strokes, overhead valves, servos, hydraulic disc brakes, batteries, have intimidated me a bit. Modern bikes, 2 me at least, actually seem designed not to be worked on by the owner. I posted my experience to alert others that yes, maybe they should be careful how much trust they place with their dealer.

And yes, if I don't see a dealer actually torque the lugs on in the future, I will most likely do it at home, if not in their parking lot.

BTW, I do think a good attorney could push the liability back on the dealer. And as a matter of fact, I do not ride 2 up with my wife.

I still would like to hear from someone regarding a "static" torque test or value to "check" tightness. Its a concern for me to back off and retorque the bolts with my $150 torque wrench which I would fear is not as accurate as the dealer's $400 torque wrench, so what I'd really like to be able to do is to put the torque wrench on the bolt & push it until I see 77 lbs, is that ok? Or is there a higher torque value to use, as it is static. Otherwise I would fear my lossening & tightening would be statistically more likely to lead to disaster.

Not sure where you got that I bash dealers. I don't think, even in this thread, I've been particularly harsh on them. At this point I have not had them replace anything other than the lug bolts, and actually let them give me one used one with the 3 other new ones (the used one appeared ok to me & I declined their offer to scab one off a new bike as they did not have a forth one in stock). The part of my bike with visible damage (at least when off), the wheel, a $700 or so part, I have declined to force them to replace as it appears functionally ok. So I think I have been pretty easy on them. In exchange they have offered me a coupon for $77 against future tire service. I don't think they understand the insult factor.

Anyway, hope you stick around & gives us some input, always nice to hear some more viewpoints tempered by years of experience.

[Rog(UK) - Yorkshire Dales]

I think a defence lawyer could certainly mitigate damages if SoCal had come off his bike and had serious injuries. The very fact that SoCal views forums such as this is an indication that he is keen on all that motorcycling involves, of which a major part is that we are vulnerable if we come off our bike - and this forum has regular postings on just this issue. Any reasonable/normal person would want to take reasonable measures to prevent this happening. Part of this would be the bike inspection. All bike magazines that I have read preach bike safety and bike inspection is a major part of our safety routine. If MOST riders carry out this safety check, then there would have to be a good case for mitigation.

Personally, I would prefer to carry out these routine checks rather than be faced with the possibility that I may be fed meals through a straw.

As it happens, my level of safety - rightly or wrongly - has been NOT to check the bike after it has been in for a service.... I think I will check a little more next time, but probably not to the extent of taking a torque wrench to check the settings.

I would like to thank you, Greybeard, for making an issue out of this. Perhaps it has made people think - and that is what this board is all about. Good on you.

To those who disagree with Greybeard; it's your choice. 99% of the time, everthing will be ticketyboo....... but it's that 1%.

Whatever,

Ride safely,

Rog.

[MikeCam]

Quote: "C'mon, there HAS to be an attorney in here somewhere, sound off! Think you'd slide through court by saying it's the dealers fault?"

USA? California?

Product/service liability tort. Recent services performed and undisputed facts as to who did the work and what work they performed. Accepted payment from customer and redelivered bike as fixed or repaired. Incident happens on way home.

100% dealer/service tech fault and liability. No doubt. Settle or Bench trail. Actual losses plus punitive damages. (Hell California, maybe triple punitive damages.) I'll take 40% for the effort.

Damn greybeard for an old guy you never learned much did you?

M

[popgazer]

C'mon, there HAS to be an attorney in here somewhere, sound off!
Think you'd slide through court by saying it's the dealers fault?

Just finished talking to a lawyer about this case scenario.
Maybe you got a point Greybeard! BUT. If something were to happen, a rider wold be suspected as having lost control of the bike, then the burden is on the rider to prove that a faulty wheel adjustment caused the bike to crash. That calls for an expert to examine the wreckage to determine whether that was a the case.
The rider then may subpoena the dealer to testify under oath.
The dealer may argue, even under oath that they used the proper torque values and followed the guidelines issued by the manufacturer, which would turn the problem over to the manufacturer.
However, as MikeCam stated above with circumstantial evidence, if the case were to go to trial, a jury is likely to find the dealer at fault.

[Greybeard]

And Mike, for an old guy I've forgotten a lot too!

Look, what I'm trying to get across here is for you to get involved.

Let's just say, the REST of the world doesn't want to take full responsibility for their actions so YOU must learn to protect yourselves!

You think I know what everything did on the trucks I drove?

Heck no, but even to get a license you have to prove to the inpector that you can do a pre-trip check. And you don't need anything more than a tire bump stick and a flash light for tools.

As far as the law is concerned, throw everything you think you know out the window when it comes to civil action.
You hurt someone with YOUR motorcycle you WILL pay! Give a damn who caused it.

Socal...you're a saint!
You should have had the service manager bent over so far he could kiss his own ass!
Make him prove that wheel is OK and delve further into why it was loose.
This is my second bike with lug nuts ('90 VFR750 was the first) and finger tight should have been easier to spot.

So...what else you wanna talk about!?

[GypsyRR]

I must say, Greybeard, that even though a majority of the comments refute your position, you still have a great attitude, stand by what you believe, and you haven't stomped out of here like an angry child hurling abuses.

I applaud your demeanor and civility!

(now will someone tell me how to check my wheels, please!)

[DJ Downunder]

(now will someone tell me how to check my wheels, please!)

Come on guys..tell this little gypsy girl how to check her wheel..I'll be watching.......cos I might learn something..

For those without a torque wrench...like me.

I would just put a socket on it (each of the four wheel bolts) and push with all my might..when I can push no more..that's my check done.

Oh yeah...bike in gear..on center stand if you have one..and engine off.

DJ

[chris]

Well speaking personally DJ, I wind 'em up tight by hand, then put a 3 foot bar on the end of the wrench and lean on that and then I pound that with a 5lb lump hammer for a minute..just to be sure...

[MikeCam]

Gypsy,

Checking rear wheel for usability (w/o torque wrench):

First: Look the tech/service manager in the eye and ask - "What torque did you tighten the lugs?" His demeanor and answer indicate whether he knows what is what at all. [The correct answer is 105Nm or 77 ft lbs using a shop- torque wrench that was calibrated that morning against a known standard torque instrument of industrial design and SAE/EURO standards.] (I am exaggerating that part!)

1. Bike on center stand. Neutral transmission. Key off.

2. Rotate wheel by hand and observe for free rotation and for absence of any side to side wobble (apparent to the naked, untrained eye as a distinct movement of the edge rotational line of tire 'moving' in and out as the wheel rotates). Also check for 'fit' of brake caliper over rotor and absence of any grabbiness as wheel rotates. A fair amount of drag is common but it is consistent across the range of rotation.

3. From left side of bike (can side) grab wheel in both hands at 9-10 o'clock and 2-3 o'clock position and shake, pull, bend, twist, etc to determine that wheel is not wobbly (technical term there). Be cautious not to pull the bike off the center stand (forward or sideways). Listen for 'clunking' noises which indicate the wheel is not firmly seated.

4. Visually inspect lug bolts to determine that each appears fully tightened and all appear to be same depth into wheel. Hand check for tightness by trying to turn the bolts counter-clockwise. They should not budge even a little. Visually inspect opposite side of wheel to determine that brake pads are properly positioned over rotor and that wheel hub is fully seated onto Final Drive housing.

That's about all you can do as a customer without your own tools on hand.

Generally, I agree with greybeard that we are ultimately responsible for the safe mechanical function and active operation of our machines. But under US Commercial Codes for product/service/delivery to consumers, the dealer/servicing facility is deemed to be competent, trustworty, fit and responsible for performing paid services to a standard that meets or exceeds all state requirements for safe motor vehicle operation.

Any mechanical failure incidents occurring after delivery (for some debatable amount of time - like after returning home, putting the bike up, then riding again tomorrow) are deemed to be caused by negligent workmanship at the servicing facility unless the defendant (service shop) can show rider error, intervention or unsafe operation directly caused the failure.

The liability burden is on the shop until the owner/operator completes the return trip. After that, the lawyers spend hours debating various contributing factors that mitigate responsibility across the involved parties.

Interestingly, in this imagined scenario, a rider carrying his own torque wrench to the shop and displaying it (whether or not he uses it in sight of a service rep) is sufficient for the defendant to claim rider intervention as a contributing factor. That would be an interesting case to have at trial as competing lawyers argue the facts and the suppositions and the inuendos.

But I cannot accept renumeration for these comments and I am neither certified nor qulaified to give such thoughts publicly. Read this at your own risk. User assumes all liability for future failures and hiccups.

MCam

[Rog(UK) - Yorkshire Dales]

Hi Gypsy. I like Chris's way of describing how to tighten the rear wheel. - the studs have to be very tight!

The BMW Workshop Manual describes it thus:-

1. Hand tighten wheel studs
2. Tighten in a diagonally opposite sequence to 72Nm
3. Final tightening to 105Nm.

Hope this helps!

Ride safely,

Rog

[MikeCam]

One comment from experience....

when tightening lugs by hand without a torque wrench, the nearly correct tightness is when the last pull/push on a 10-12 inch wrench handle yields a small squeal from the bolts. That indicates you have finished tightening and started stripping threads.

[Sunbeemer]

Wncbmw -- you might want to check the tightness of the oil drain plug when you leave those quicky-lube shops. I've pulled up beside a couple cars in the last few years that were leaving a trail of oil on the road to let them know about it, and they both said they had just had their oil changed at these places. Several horror stories have appeared in the newspaper over the years about siezed engines from loss-of-oil when drain plugs weren't torqued down! Some went to court where the shop was held accountable and had to rebuild the engine, others were settled out of court with the shop taking responsibility. So, Greybeard, I guess there is legal precedent for expectation of proper servicing by competent professionals. Not to mention how I hate to see that oil on the road when I'm riding...

[Greybeard]

Excellent info from all and you may want to consider this as well.

Strictly for your pre-ride and not after having removed the wheel, check for looseness, not correct tightness.

Socket on a breaker bar, test to see if they'll come loose with a moderate effort. If not, just settle 'em back toward tight and don't try to go beyond prescribed torque.

Same with any other important fastener on a machine.
Who can remember all those torque values? And even if you knock it loose it's easy to bring it back close to spec without stripping since you just loosened it and have "muscle memory" going for you. (Mikecam... twist their nuts 'til they squeal?...oooooo )

Easy peasy!

PS
I never said the shop wasn't accountable and the legal action I referred to was civil action stemming from injury/death as a result of you operating a
faulty vehicle.

[chris]

One comment from experience....

when tightening lugs by hand without a torque wrench, the nearly correct tightness is when the last pull/push on a 10-12 inch wrench handle yields a small squeal from the bolts. That indicates you have finished tightening and started stripping threads.

Yep, without a torque wrench I listen for that little creaking sound which says that's far enough...

[wncbmw]

you might want to check the tightness of the oil drain plug when you leave those quicky-lube shops

My Subaru has 152,000 miles on it. I'll need a new engine soon anyway!

[rdsmith3]

you might want to check the tightness of the oil drain plug when you leave those quicky-lube shops

My Subaru has 152,000 miles on it. I'll need a new engine soon anyway!

No way -- it's a boxer engine. It should last a long time.

I am almost at 150,000 on my '97 Audi A6 Quattro. I had a '96 Subaru Outback before that. Both are good vehicles.

[wncbmw]

Yeah, I was kidding. This thing gives every indication it will be the Energicizer Bunny, keep going and going! Which is fine. It is just my commuter and the family snow transport! Keeps money available for bike stuff!

[The Velvet Monkey]

I'm an attorney and I'll tell you that if Socal rob was injured, he would have an excellent negligence case against his dealership, barring some limitation of liability that I don't know about. He is, thank the Lord, only missing the damages (unless his bike was damaged).

First, I think it would be fruitless to argue that the dealership had no duty to properly check that Socal's lugs were properly torqued. They clearly did have such a duty. The question is whether they breached this duty. To me, it sounds like they did.

In most states, there is a comparitive negligence analysis. Did Socal's actions contribute to the damages (hypothetical) he suffered when the wheel fell off? This question hinges upon whether he breached his standard of care when he picked up the bike. This is an analysis of whether he acted as a reasonably prudent person when he neglected to verify the lugs. Personally, I don't believe that he had a duty to check the proper torque of the lugs immediately upon picking up the bike whose wheel had just be serviced. However, if a lug nut was hanging loose as he mounted the bike, it might change the equation

Beyond the more simple negligence analysis, there is a theory called res ipsa loquitor that essentially states "the thing speaks for itself." Check it out here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_ipsa_loquitor. Clearly, a wheel doesn't fall off without someone's negligence. Here, the the motorcycle was in the exclusive control of the dealer/mechanic, until Socal took possession of it. Unless Socal's negligence contributed to his own harm, all he'd need to prove is that the wheel fell off. As to any negligence on his part, it would again have to be established he had a legal duty (as a reasonably prudent person) to verify that the dealership had properly torqued his lug nuts. This, of course, is for the finder of fact to determine and a review of all the evidence.

If he had been injured I think he'd have an excellent case.

[Greybeard]

Now, er...may I call you Velvet or do you prefer Mr. Monkey, Esq.?

Let's say you represent the elderly couple operating the car next to our defendant Mr. socal, they veer off to avoid his wildly gyrating motorcycle and when Erving biffs into an abutment, Sylvia goes to that big mah-jong game in the sky.

You're not going after the bike owner?

Don't fib now, you'll give lawyers a bad name.....