Oil pressure and temperature gauge location

[dbrick]

That's handsome!

[David R]

Ammolab what temp does your bike run at? 225*f?

David

[ammolab]

Ammolab what temp does your bike run at? 225*f?

David

Rarely above 195*F. The sump holds 4qts for a water cooled engine of only 750cc and that sump is finned. I think that good quantity of oil and the airflow over the sump keeps the oil cool...sometimes almost too cool.

My R50/5 Airhead would run 265*F when touring two up in hot weather and this is with the optional deep sump fitted. No lube issues noted in 114,000 miles using 20W-50 Castrol.

[johnvw]

Dear Ammolab,
Yes they do look very smart. Not a lot of information about them, just seems to be pictures and prices.
Regards
John

[deilenberger]

O/K lads I am always open to suggestions and I really thank you for your comments.
Ammolad ; I am of the understanding that the oil in the sump has been through the oil radiator cooler and is colder than the operating temp oil. The current oil temp is not in or near the sump, whether it is measuring the same oil 'sump' temp is to be confirmed.

David R and deilenberger ; Yes the last thing I wish to do is ---- around with the CANBUS. I was hoping the sensor was delivering a resistance measurement, not voltage, and I could isolate it from the CANBUS. Unfortunately the CANBUS is the great unknown, and best left that way.

It very likely IS resistive - but the only way to know the resistance (which changes with temperature) is by applying a voltage across the resistance, and the current draw is measured as the resistance changes. Applying a second voltage across it might well cause some severe problems.

CANBUS is a communications protocol. The modules (computers) in the bike communicate via CANBUS, they get their input information from different sensors - with resistive sensors being the most common (throttle position sensors, gear indicator sensor, temperature sensors) or as an output signal (knock sensors, RPM sensors.)

Confusing CANBUS with the basic electronics - and making a boogyman out of "CANBUS" seems rather common with owners who don't understand it.

The suggestion about using the GS-911 to determine the 'actual' oil temperature per bar. Do you mean by 'calibrate the display' that you physically are aware of the temperature that each bar represents

Yes. One bar = ###F, two bars = ###F, etc. It's really quite simple to do.

or alternatively is that electric signal (from the CANBUS), which represents each displayed oil temp bar is now going to digital gauge, requiring calibration.
Thank you for your assistance, I do understand that this must be driving you all mad. I just hate the thought that one GIVES UP.
Regards
John

I wouldn't say give up.. given the information you're seeking on oil temperature - it's already there, you just have to convert it to a form that you're comfortable with.

[David R]

Thank you ammolab. Oil life is determined by the temperature it operates at.

Oil that runs at 300*f all the time needs changing more often than if it runs at 200*f.

225*f is kind of a standard.

Thanks for the info.

David

[johnvw]

To All,
I do welcome all the comments. I will not be messing with the CANBUS.
If I stay with the oil temp gauge, I think my only option now is to use the 'oil return line' ie the line from the bottom of the oil cooler, where it enters the block with the 16mm banjo.

**** Any dangers or concerns here ****

A little modification ( addition ) to the banjo will accommodate the sensor installation.

I had initially ( without additional knowledge) not considered this position and the sump plug position as I felt it was more important to monitor the 'heated' oil ( where practical ) for signs of trouble, rather than monitor the new 'cooled' oil entering the sump for circulation.

Again this Forum is a tremendous source of information and it is because of those who choose to post that I welcome your knowledge and support

Regards
John

[ammolab]

100% of oil in the lubrication system does NOT go thru the cooler. Main bearings sling out a lot of oil. All the oil pumped to the cams in the valve covers, etc...all this oil drains back to the sump, UN cooled.

Once the engine warms up the sump is "heated oil". Did BMW mount the OEM sender at the outlet of the cooler?

Google "location for oil temperature sensor/sender" see what location people choose.

In any case let us know how it all works out. I rode my R1200R across W Texas June 2011 at 80mph for 6hrs with OAT all In excess of 113*F....oil temp was up one bar from normal. Since that ride, I do not worry about oil temp in that bike at all.

[johnvw]

Dear Ammolab,
The oil temp sensor is located on top of the engine, right side near the 'oil return line', that metal tube that runs to the top of the oil radiator.

In my previous posts please read oil COOLER as Radiator, I have just become aware that an external secondary cooling system exists called a cooler.
Unless someone can indicate that the oil return line sump banjo is NOT an appropriate place to mount the oil temp sensor, I think I am snookered.

So far I am learning a lot, avoiding any damage and not spent anything. Your temperature information is interesting in regard to a suitable scale for the gauge.
Any ideas about pressure ranges.
Regards
John

[David R]

I have 2 thoughts to confuse the situation.

Oil cooler or radiator return line will show ambiant until the oil thermostat opens.
The thermostat is not always open and sometimes on a cold day it never opens.

Thought #2
IF the bike passes a voltage through the stock oil pressure sender and you have a gauge that reads ONLY the voltage, then canbus will not know it becasue it does not add or remove voltage.

On Automobiles its a 5 volt signal that goes to a sensor, any sensor. The other side is grounded. The resulting voltage (third wire) is signal.

The next thing is to match the gauge to the output VOLTAGE of the sensor.
OR you could use a volt meter to read oil temp.

Anybody got a manual that shows the oil pressure sensor wiring?

[johnvw]

Dear David R,
I am becoming really gun shy in relation to interfering with the CANBUS.

Even if the thermostat did not open, this would indicate that the oil temperature had not reached a level that would warrant any major concerns.
This is becoming very interesting.
Google can not really recommend a suitable site for the oil temp gauge, it just seems to be connected to the sump for convenience.
In one instant I am measuring 'good' cooled oil entering the oil circuitry, at the same time not all the oil is being circulated through the oil radiator ( as per posts), indicating the oil in the sump is hot and I should have a temperature measurement. It`s all very interesting.

I would like a comment on the oil return line banjo port.
Regards
John

[Bob Ain't Stoppin']

John, Are you aware that there are two separate oil circuits in these engines? (At least there were in the original oilhead engine). One circuit and pump do the engine lubrication, while the other circuit and pump do the oil cooling loop. In the original oil heads, some models had a thermostat and some didn't. Don't know if our 1211R has one or not.

[johnvw]

Thank you Bob ain`t Stoppin,
No I was not aware of this. There is so little information available ( or I have not found it as yet ) and I have just about exhausted this Forum for answers.
NOT ready to give up yet. ( Learning all the time).
Regards
John

[johnvw]

O/K Bob,
You are correct I have two.
2012/07,K27 0400.
I did find a circuit for a K1600 that described the two paths.
Lubrication picks up from sump and circulates before returning oil to sump. Cooling picks up from sump goes via radiator and returns to sump, continuously. I can only assume the path is similar in the R1200R. The current oil temp sensor is very close to the oil return to radiator line, but the internal porting is a mystery.
Google searches indicate the fitting of after market oil temp sensors are located in the sump. This may be more of a convenient rather that a satisfactory location due to the lack of access available.
I think my only option now is to use the banjo port and read sump oil temps.
I am still open to comments.
Regards
John

[David R]

I have not looked, can you use the line TO the cooler? This will give sump temperature.

There has to be a line in and out for the cooler If you are going to use a banjo bolt to install the sensor, it might as well be before the cooler.

Edit: I looked at the parts, there are 2 oil pumps in one. One for cooling and one for lube. Two pickups in the sump. No banjo bolt in the line going TO the cooler.

A lot of car engine water temperature sensors are in the thermostat housing. This is before the thermostat, before it circulates. This gives readings as the engine warms up so I know when to turn the heater on.

David

[johnvw]

Dear David R,
I would prefer to have the oil temp sensor in the line going to the radiator, but there is just no provision except for breaking into the metal tubing going to the radiator.
I think my only alternative is to use the banjo ( after the radiator). Interestingly I will be measuring 'cooled' oil not really sump oil.
It is a case of beggars can not be choosers.
Unfortunately I think I have now turned a lot of Forum posters off this thread.
Regards
John

[deilenberger]

John, Are you aware that there are two separate oil circuits in these engines? (At least there were in the original oilhead engine). One circuit and pump do the engine lubrication, while the other circuit and pump do the oil cooling loop. In the original oil heads, some models had a thermostat and some didn't. Don't know if our 1211R has one or not.

The R12R (all R12 engines) have a double oil pump - two sections. One high pressure for the engine, one low pressure high flow for the cooling circuit. The cooling circuit does have a thermostat in it - located where the pipe comes off the starboard side of the engine up top. Since the two oil pump sections have a common intake - measuring oil temperature at the feed to the oil cooler will give you the temperature of the oil in the sump once the thermostat opens.

[johnvw]

Dear Don,
Yes, that would be an ideal location. I would always prefer to measure the oil before it enters the radiator. I am a little uncertain just how to break into the circuit ( ie without cutting the black metal tubing ).
Another concern would be access for a quick disassembly, returning the plumbing back to standard if unrelated warranty work was required.
I will keep seaching, it is amazing just what is revealed.
Regards
John

[ammolab]

Explain to me why you would want oil temp leaving the pump before the cooler, over the oil temp at the cooler pump pickup ( the sump! ).....do you think there would be any significant differences?

The sump is not only convenient, it is significant.

[johnvw]

Dear Ammolab,
I am always open to suggestions.
Gut feeling tells me that the oil entering the radiator is at a higher temperature having carried out all the hard work. It is this temperature that is ( to my thinking) more critical in regard to oil performance specs.
Measuring the oil leaving the radiator ( to me), would indicate the efficiency of the oil temp dissipation and sump temperature.
Being anal, both would be of interest. To choose, I think the higher temp would give me more information. That being said the temperature range, according to the bars is well within operational limits.
It`s gut feeling, nothing technical at this time.
Regards
john