BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

It is worth getting fixed if you have $2120 handy (who does these days?). BUT I fear that for your splines to destruct in merely 16000 miles indicates a serious misalignment of the crankshaft, input shaft and clutch plates. One way or another, it'll happen again to that bike. We already have one guy whose splines went 2-3 times cause they never discovered the underlying fault. I ain't brilliant (well, I am, but not about this) but this fits the axial misalignment profile perfectly.

MikeCam wrote:It is worth getting fixed if you have $2120 handy (who does these days?). BUT I fear that for your splines to destruct in merely 16000 miles indicates a serious misalignment of the crankshaft, input shaft and clutch plates. One way or another, it'll happen again to that bike. We already have one guy whose splines went 2-3 times cause they never discovered the underlying fault. I ain't brilliant (well, I am, but not about this) but this fits the axial misalignment profile perfectly.

The dealer said there is a 2yr warranty for the parts. Hopefully it will happen in the next 2 yrs again. Either way...if i do fix it, the bike is getting sold first thing come spring.

Either way, i'm getting the parts back on Friday. I'll post pics ASAP of the parts

Johnny,

Not that I know what I'm talking about, but I think I would use the prices beemerboneyard seems to get for the parts(I've noticed just about everything is marked sold on their site) as a baseline for what I could get/ask on EBay and sell it myself. I'm with you; even without my bike having this problem(yet!), I don't think I'll ever buy another, or recommend that anyone else do so.

Good luck to you whichever way you go.

BMW should already know this, but let me bring it up for their sake. Bad news travels FAST!! Especially when the bad news is based on a very costly, disabling failure that is the fault of the manufacturer !! I've said it before . . . This type of failure should NEVER happen. When there's 3 bikes at 1 dealer with the same failure, that is the manufacturer's fault. Even if those bikes were frequently wheelied and subject to an occasional hole shot (they were not) . . . . it should not happen. When 155 HP SportBikes NEVER have ANY driveline failures, even when unmercifully abused . . . . and 80 HP bikes are failing in normal riding, there is a serious problem. This artful denial that burns their loyal customers to a tune of over $2,000 WILL bite them more severely then they can imagine. That kind of costly abandonment by the liable factory lasts a lifetime. It's not just the owner of the failed bike, it's everyone he/she interacts with when M/C's are discussed. From there it spreads like the Ebola virus. What price would you put on that kind of pandemic negative advertisement???? It's a LOT MORE than a few thousand transmissions -and- your reputation. All those new, modern twins and fours now on the market will inherit the bad reputation EARNED by their OilHead and HexHead model's driveline mistakes. BMW can even sour the formerly pristine reputation of every shaft drive bike, new or used, in the minds of informed riders looking for a non-BMW bike.

BMW, if they plan on not only making a profit, but staying in the M/C business, needs to bite the bullet on all the driveline failures. Once the real problem is found, be it parts quality and/or alignment, they need to replace those defective FD, engine crankcase or transmission assemblies. There must be some or most of the responsibility that can be born by their supplier(s) (Getrag). Remember when Renault sold cars in the USA? I do, my dumb Uncle bought a used Daulphine for his wife to use. I worked on that flimsy POS. Their performance and reliability were legendary. Both much worse than average, all the way to terrible. There aren't many Americans that would ever consider buying a new Renault, even if they now make a good car.

Word is the retirement of those old German master mechanics that lovingly assembled all those older AirHead models by hand are gone forever. They've been replaced by (?) + (?) + (?) immigrants without ANY of their predecessor's talents or pride. On the bright side, they still get the job done, but . . . . they do it a lot cheaper.

Sometimes I really hate it when I'm right.
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CycleRob wrote: BMW, if they plan on not only making a profit, but staying in the M/C business, needs to bite the bullet on all the driveline failures.

I wonder about this myself. On the one hand, they have introduced lots of new models, which seems to indicate they want to be in the motorcycle business. OTOH, they continue to have a pathetic dealer network and a poor idea of customer service. In their auto business, I think they would have bitten the bullet on this issue.

It is possible for them to recover. Audi did it after the whole fiasco with the unintended acceleration problems (whether real or due to operator error) with the Audi 5000. Their sales plummeted in the US and Audi kept blaming the drivers, even on 60 minutes. They have since recovered in the US and they make fine cars.

Question -- have any non-US owners experienced the spline problem, or is it just the US models we are hearing about?

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Ok..get this. Got a call from BMWMOC Tuesday saying the input shaft was bad too. But You already know that. So I figure screw it...at this point just have them fix it. I asked them if I would get the bike back by Friday. Trip to WV this weekend. "Oh yeah, no problem, you might even have it Thurday night". So I say "So you are guarenteeing the bike will be done Friday?" He says "Yes, no problem." Then I say "If its not gonna be done by then, I will pick it up Thursday night, and either get it fixed elsewhere or part it out." "No problem, it'll be finished" he says. So I call him today to check on the status. "Well, we had to stop working on your bike because a guy from Michigan got stranded here because his Final Drive failed." . "You've had my bike for 4 weeks now, and you are just getting to it, AFTER I told you what the problem was when I dropped it off. And you said.."No thats not the problem", then you call me and tell me that is exactly the problem?" Thats when he began to stutter and backpedal. He was at a loss for words and didnt say anything. Then I reiterated that the only way I wanted them fixing it if it would be done by Friday. I asked him if he had a loaner bike I could use till it was done. "Ummmm....I dont have anything available right now." Then he got real dingle and said, "We'll stop working on it right now if you'd like, its in pieces, but you can have it." I gave him till 5 to get back to me on the status. If my phone doesnt ring at 5, I'm going to get the bike, not even gonna tell em I'm coming. And you can be certain that I will be causing a scene when I get there. I just hope there are customers around to hear my story as I narrate it very loudly from the beginning for everyone to hear. I know I shoulda picked the bike up at the first sign of incompetency, but I just really wanted my bike back and gave them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I'll have Janyss video tape the entire event when I go pick it up. That'd make a really good YouTube video

Beemeridian wrote:In either case, it appears that shelling out for the upgraded Canadian spline shaft would cure this problem permanently, and return the bike to you with a reasonable certainty of lifetime ownership.

The "Canadian" spline shaft is not really an immediate option, unfortunately. I called and spoke with the guy last week. He's only made 2 prototype shafts... one for his bike and one for his friend's bike (both GS's). He created that nice advertisement and sent it to all the BMW shops in North America as a marketing test to see if he could sell any shafts to make it worth the effort. He didn't get much response but said that the "official" BMW shops would not be willing to install non-BMW parts. This is understandable. This means that his only customer base would be back-yard mechanics and independents. Obviously, if he could justify having more shafts made in a batch, then the cost could be less.

He talked a lot about the spline problem in general, but I won't try to spell it all out here. If you want to talk to him about it, he's more than willing to share what he knows.

Anyway, he said that if he could get a certain number of buyers to commit, then he may have a batch of shafts built maybe in October. I hope I didn't mis-quote too much of what he told me, but this is the general idea.

Trout wrote:He's only made 2 prototype shafts... one for his bike and one for his friend's bike (both GS's).

It has been noted on some bikes that the OEM replacement input shaft fails at about the same mileage as the original unless the cause of the failure is identified and corrected. i.e. misalignment, etc. Did he mention the mileage on his and his buddy's GS's when the splines failed and whether he has similar mileage on his new and improved splines to see if they really prevent another failure?

Johnny, I'm glued to this thread ....

So what happened on Friday? Hope that it was a favourable outcome?

Fingers crossed.

Cheers

awagnon wrote:Did he mention the mileage on his and his buddy's GS's when the splines failed and whether he has similar mileage on his new and improved splines to see if they really prevent another failure?

He probably did mention the mileage, but I didn't write it down and I don't remember. I do remember him saying that he was anxious to prove that the longer shaft did fix the problem. He was disappointed that his buddy wasn't racking up the miles fast enough to justify a teardown/inspection this winter. I think he wanted to inspect both bikes this winter.

His theory was that the original shaft was too soft as a result of a "short-cut" method of manufacture. He said the original shaft was machined and hardened in a single process. His process was 3-step: machine the shaft slightly over size, harden, then machine it again to specs.

I believe that the problem is more than a theoretical soft shaft. If the splines are fully engaged for the full length of the hub and if everything lines up correctly, the "short-cut" shaft would work just fine.

Think of all the automotive applications where a splined hub and shaft are used: clutches, CV axles, differentials, transfer cases, etc. This method of rotational transfer NEVER FAILS... except in the case of the BMW R

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Beemeridian wrote:I have never seen one that did not have the shaft fit into a pilot bearing/bushing in the flywheel.

Certainly true for transmission pilot shafts... but splined couplings do not require that design. The splined CV axles on front wheel drive cars just slide into the transaxle, the other end just slides into the hub, although the hub end does have a big nut attached. Pull the driveline off your old Chevy truck and you'll find splines without a bushing, same for the axles in an old style differential, they slide through the carrier and are usually held in with C locks. Take apart an old Warn hub and guess what you'll find... splines.

My point is that the splined shaft design is very proven and does not require a supporting bushing to be effective. Splines don't wear out. I remember a friend trying to pop a wheelie with a 327 powered Willys. The rear axle snapped, but all the splined joints throughout the entire powertrain remained intact.

Having said all that, I've never seen a splined coupling as short and cantilevered as the BMW R bike. It's just a very bad implementation of a proven design.

trout

No intention of starting a hissing contest, but Beemeridian is correct. The BMW boxer application is the only one where engine torque is being transmited to the tranny via a cantilevered shaft, or one that is not supported at both ends. Just try to picture the effect of the engine torque on the end of that shaft.

By the same token, in all your examples of spline to spline connection there are sturdy bearings very close to the spline , in effect making that joint a fairly stiff one. Ex: Axle shaft bearing on one end and differential (chunk) bearing on the receiving end.

bikermeow wrote:Johnny, I'm glued to this thread ....

So what happened on Friday? Hope that it was a favourable outcome?

Fingers crossed.

Cheers

Went to the dealer Sat. with trailer in tow to pick up the bike either way..done or not. The bike was in a hundred pieces. I told them I was taking it home. He looked at me like I was crazy. They said they had to fix a final drive failure for a stranded biker from michigan and that caused a delay with my bike. I sat down with the owner and service manager for 2 hrs and expressed my disgust with the lies "You'll have your bike back in a day, blah, blah. I'll call you at 3 oclock, blah blah." The owner looked me in the eye and guaranteed the bike would be done wednesday, or the repairs are free. He also gave me free oil changes for life. The dealer closed at 5pm and I was there till around 7pm. Now I'm hoping the bike doesnt get done till Thursday!! The service manager stated that the shaft is harder than the disk by design. That way only the disk is supposed to fail. But in my case both splines failed. He also told me that (off the record" that the design is flawed, and a longer splined input shaft, or a shaft with less and thicker splines would eliminate the problem. So.....nothing more to report till Wednesday I guess.

Boxer.....do you still want the old shaft and disk for testing?

patiently waiting for the outcome.

"The owner looked me in the eye and guaranteed the bike would be done Wednesday, or the repairs are free"
Sound like a deal to me if he stands by his word.

They called me Wed. and said the bike was ready, unfortunately I could not make it there that day. So I told them i'd be there at 4:30 today to get the bike. Well.....come 3:30, the service manager calls me and says they were doing a final inspection on the work performed. "We noticed that the o-ring for the injector was broken, it'll be overnighted to us and you can come get it at noon tomorrow." So after 5 min of profuse apologizing from him, I just asked him when the nightmare will be over.