BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

baltm604 wrote:Perhaps you should call the BBB and your states attorney's office. Include a copy of the article from MCN. Perhaps they will be interested in a consumer fraud case! sounds better than a theft complaint of worn out parts.

Bill

I posted this tale over on the MOA forum.

I have a 2004 Honda Element that got a windshield crack soon after I bought it.
Not from road debris, but the crack started at the frame, and grew.

I let it ride, pissed of course, knowing that I had to buy a new windshield eventually, who knew.

Then I got a letter from a California law firm about a class action suit against Honda USA, over cracking windshields. I was not alone. Seems the 2003, and 2004 elements had a structural problem that stressed windshields into cracking.

All it took was one person to file the suit, and enough people to justify class action status, and the judge ordered Honda to turn over their sales records, and the lawyer contacted every 2003, and 2004 Element owner, and asked about their windshields. He hit paydirt.

When the lawyer gathered up the true stats, Honda, who was claiming no problem, saw the numbers, and immediately settled. I got a replacement windshield, and a frame fix gratis, from Honda due to that settlement.

We ask how many people are affected by BMW drive train issues, and speculate, but this lawyer found out the true size of Honda's problem.

Maybe this law firm is interested in hearing about BMW motorcycle drive train issues. If they got a few hundred emails from those affected, they might want to dig.

Counsel:
http://www.cmht.com/cases_honda_element.php

Settlement Administrator:
http://www.gilardi.com/hondaelement/

Just got off the phone with the dealer. Gee guess what? The Rep. said they were not going to do anything about it. The service manager said that the input shaft was "barely worn", and it is the clutch disk that is worn. Estimate of $1200 to get it fixed. Is this something that I can do myself? I am seriously thinking of going to get my bike and doing it myself. Hurray for BMW!!!!

Johnny --

The suggestion to submit a well-written, unemotional letter to the BMWON is a good one. As a contracts representative, I write letters for living and would be more than willing to lend assistance if you'd like.

It may also be worthwhile to contact MCN. I don't subscribe to that publication but I'd assume they also have a section with correspondence from readers. The treatment by the dealer and the rep that you experienced regarding your spline issue is at odds with what the article claimed for owners with FD problems. MCN claims that they were a prime forum for the earlier BMW surging issue. If true, it's likely that they will also become one for the FD issue issue. Who knows, if enough folks contact MCN, they may decide to do a sequel to their "Tarnished Roundel" article and become the forum for BMW spline issues as well. And much as I hate to see lawyers involved, Herb's suggestion to contact a law firm may also be worthwhile.

Right now, it appears that BMW is in denial, exactly as they were intially on the both the surging problem and FD issues. While BMW Mottorad has never formally acknowleged either, if the information in the MCN article is accurate, they have taken steps to ameliorate both problems. Given this past behavior, it appears likely that they will address the spline issue in similar fashion.

Charlie

The service manager said that the input shaft was "barely worn", and it is the clutch disk that is worn.

Get those parts! And/or document with lots of photos. Definitions of "wear" are at the heart of this spline issue.

johnnyjs1 wrote:Just got off the phone with the dealer. Gee guess what? The Rep. said they were not going to do anything about it. The service manager said that the input shaft was "barely worn", and it is the clutch disk that is worn. Estimate of $1200 to get it fixed. Is this something that I can do myself? I am seriously thinking of going to get my bike and doing it myself. Hurray for BMW!!!!

Yes, you can replace the clutch disk yourself, BUT, they have already done half the job and will certainly charge you for the work they have done. Just bend over and let them finish it this time. It's more cost-effective than taking a bucket of parts home to finish the job yourself.

A new clutch disk will likely not last very long on a trans input shaft that is "barely worn". It should not be worn at all.

Choices:
1) See how long a new disk lasts on a worn shaft.
2) Replace the shaft and hope it never happens again.
3) Put it back together and sell it.

If you have them replace the shaft, the cost will double or triple from the current quote.

Wonder what if any warranty will come with the new parts

Johnny:

Sorry to hear about this sort of outcome.

Please don't put your 1150 up for sale just yet because I am going to put mine in the paper this weekend.

johnnyjs1

At this juncture you are between a rock and a hard place, your best bet is:

1) Take pictures of the tranny shaft and the "worn" disc
2) Ask the shop what would be the cost to you if you pull the bike out of the shop, at this time
2) Ask the shop to brake down their $1200 estimate into parts and labor
3) Ask the shop what is their labor rate
4) Ask the shop what is the warranty on the repairs

After review of the data you shoulde be able to make the right decision.

Best of luck......

johnnyjs1 wrote:Is this something that I can do myself? I am seriously thinking of going to get my bike and doing it myself. Hurray for BMW!!!!

Johnny, I'm sorry to see that this happened to you. Reading the few stories of BMW turning away from these failures, leaving the customer hanging makse me wonder about buying another BMW. Sure, I've had good luck with this bike but looking at some of their 'customer service' (or lack of) I wonder about potential future problems.

On another note, like the others said, ask the dealer what it would cost you to take the bike home. It may be more worth it at this point to have them finish the repair. As for doing it yourself, how mechanically inclined are you? It's not too hard but it will be challenging.

Take a look at this thread of what it took to get to the clutch and see how you feel about it:
http://www.bmwbmw.org/bmwforums/viewtopic.php?t=10801
Not all of those steps are needed (you could leave the final drive attached to the transmission), but it gives you and idea.

"Choices:
1) See how long a new disk lasts on a worn shaft.
2) Replace the shaft and hope it never happens again.
3) Put it back together and sell it."

I'd like to add another option: Take it home as is, and 'parts' it out on EBay or see what beemerboneyard.com would offer for it.

I would see to it BMW NEVER sees another dollar of my money, ever. Or any of my friends' money.

44

going today to get the parts and take pictures

Johnny which shop did you take it to? You mentioned Mathais, and Cleveland.

johnnyjs1

You may not get "just" the damaged parts. You should be able to get some hi-res macro pics (hint). The clutch disc could still be inside the pressure plate where a few bolts need to be removed. The splined input shaft is likely still inside the transmission. By "parts", do you mean the bike. . . . . all taken apart?

Fixing the transmission is a job for someone with patience and successful M/C transmission experience -IF- you want to avoid costly pitfalls. The hardest part is usually separating the cases after the case bolts are removed. Patience is required to heat the case bearing bosses and a "measured" equal force is needed with large plastic dead-blow hammers or large steel hammers with cushioning wood blocks. Then, you'll need a medium/large bench press to remove the torque damper spring on the input shaft. Most serious auto repair and machine shops have a press that'll R&R the spring for you for a reasonable cost. There are no shortcuts or alternative methods that will be successful w/o risking damage to good parts.

I am both not surprised and deeply disappointed in BMW's weaseling out on you for what is obviously a Manufacturer's design/materials defect.

CycleRob wrote:Fixing the transmission is a job for someone with patience and successful M/C transmission experience -IF- you want to avoid costly pitfalls.

Rob's correct. i think ANY transmission is worth taking to a pro. Transmissions are complicated components. It may be a little far, but Anton Largiader in Charlottesville, VA. knows them real well. I've known a few people that have taken parts, or even the whole bike to him.

http://www.largiader.com/

Check out his website and see how much he would charge would a trans rebuild. I'd imagine shipping wouldn't be too bad.

The bike is at BMW Motorcycles of Cleveland. They are really P*ssin me off. Apparently they have not taken the bike apart yet (as of thursday). So how they could diagnose the problem, and tell me the spline is "barely" worn, is beyond my feeble mind to comprehend. And as for the rep refusing to help me out with repairs...he never even looked at the parts(how could he, the bike hasnt been touched yet). To top it all off, I asked he sales manager to give me a figure for a new F800ST, with taking ny bike in on trade(I asked him on Wed) and he did not call me back till Friday night. You'd think they want to sell bikes, but I guess not. This whole experience may have turned me off to BMW's for good. If I decide not to ride a BMW, can I still come to future Bashes??

Johnny, you are always welcome.

I don't know the Cleveland shop, but have had excellent service at Mathias, and Holt. But they are both farther away for you.

If they have not done anything with your bike, maybe you can check with the other places.

If they did not take it apart. HOW can they say what they said??
For all you know, the "BMW Rep" is somebody's friend. You need to document what was said so far in a polite letter and go to the top. That means a "suit" not in that area, not even in your State.

After reading here the possible causes, "fretting" makes the most sense and it may be accelerated in bikes ridden frequently in the rain and/or stored outside. I just turned 61,600 miles (99,135 km) today and I've been caught in the rain and continued riding in it maybe 6 times in over 7 years. Moly greasing the splines prevents fretting.

Three bikes in the stealership with the same crunching/gnashing driveline problem can only be a Mfgr defect (design/materials/both). These are sanely ridden 80HP medium performance M/C's, not mega HP high performance racebikes. BMW's denial and retreat from the repair tells me a class action lawsuit with restitution isn't far behind. It may take a while, after the magazines get a hold of the troubling figures for a driveline failure that should NEVER happen.

.

Unfortunately, BMWMOC is closed today, so I will have to call them first thing on Teusday. I called Mathias immediately after this happened. Even before I called Cleveland(based on what I've heard about them here). They told me they could not get to my bike till the 25th of Aug. I wanted it done before then, but apparently...thats not gonna happen at Cleveland either. It will be a very interesting conversation come Tuesday morning