Problem with Armor

[GypsyRR]

In temperatures above 75 degrees the armor in my BMW riding pants is burning my knee caps while I ride. Really. Not blistering, but they get very red and hurt like a sunburn for 3-4 days. I didn’t have riding pants last summer when I was riding in 90+ degree weather and I don’t think I’ll be wearing riding pants again this summer if I’m already getting burned at 75 degrees. There has to be a solution. Has anyone else experienced this and if so, what do you do to remedy it?

[MIXR]

Gypsy - It may simply be a skin reaction to the heat and pressure of the knees against the material of the armour pockets. I'm alergic to some elastics and nylons, and can end up with either red patches or actual welts if I'm stuck against the wrong type of material!

I always use thin, self wicking, non alergenic liners under my armoured pants and jacket. Mine are polytech, but you can get wool ones (wool is not as hot as it sounds). They provide a seperation layer between you and the gear. They also stop your gear from getting sweaty (maybe not a problem for a lady) and actually supress the amount of 'stink' that gets generated under bike gear in hot weather. They also have no bum seams which is important on long days in the saddle.

The liners (really just long-johns) are not cheap, but ideal as they cater for heat and cold. I got mine from a specialist camping and hiking shop. Cost was about AUD$80 for pants and another AUD$80 for a long sleeve T, but worth every cent. I ended up buying three sets for long trips as they pack fairly small, wash and dry quickly, and are hard wearing. Also in pretty colours! I usually wear one and have one packed as a spare, with the last set at home ready for when I get back.

Try wearing some pantyhose or tights that you are comfortable with under the gear and see if you get the same problem. Alternately, you may need to stitch a simple silk or cotton patch into the knee area to give you the seperation you need between your knees and the problem armour.

The problem may also just be the coarse mesh of the armour pocket rubbing on your knees as you move around (assuming you have a coarse mesh pocket or hard material). Can't think of anything else.

[wncbmw]

What MIXR said. Try some thin running pants or dancer tights that will flow air. Or if you want something you can wear if you take off the pants, look for some of those very thin microfiber pants, which zip off into shorts off the bike. I have a couple by Columbia and one by Ex Officio that work under my Ranger pants and would work under the mesh ones also.

Any extra layer between you and the riding pants might not be a bad idea in a slide down the road anyway!

[GypsyRR]

I was wearing a layer between me and the pants - the self wicking, non-stinky Silk material kind. I always do. This was the first time it happened, and the only thing different was that the sun was beating down on me at 75-80 degrees. I was on a long stretch of road for about 40 minutes heading south, so the right knee got it the worse. I felt the pant leg and it was hot to touch where the armor is.

I was wondering if one type of armor conducts more heat than another. Maybe a different type would be the answer, but I have no idea what material would be more/less of a conductor.

[MIXR]

You've lost me Gypsy. I've got BMW Savanna 2 pants and find that the BMW armour is terrific. For me, it keeps my knees cool in the heat as it insulates, and warm iin the cold because it insulates. I even ran without my liners up in Darwin and across the north of Aus in very hot and sticky conditions, and they were fine.

If you're now saying this is a 'one-off' event, them maybe it was just that. Or it was a reaction to some moisturiser you used, or shampoo you didn't quite wash off, or ............. ??????

The armour is just a foam base, usually a sandwich of a couple of different density foam types. Shouldn't be the foam itself that is causing the problem. Most foams are actually pretty inert (non reactive) against skin and sweat. It's the material that reacts, particularly any elastic or stitching.

Maybe check that some of the armour pocket adjustment tabs haven't exposed some velcro. That can cause a rash by rubbing, or because of the nylon base in it.

That's me done - I'm out of ideas.

[wncbmw]

That's me done - I'm out of ideas.

What MIXR said again! Never heard of that!

[DJ Downunder]

GypsyRR...Pictures...I think we need pictures.... ...I'm not quite sure what you mean.. .

Just kidding.. ...You could try changing the knee armor to something like this..they may not have as much protection but might be more comfee.

I could send you these to try/have if you like..they came with my draggin jeans and I never used them..I just took thim out of the plastic bag for this pic.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~djp1/mypic2761.JPG

DJ

[GypsyRR]

You've lost me Gypsy..... it was a reaction to some moisturiser you used, or shampoo you didn't quite wash off, or ............. ??????

That's me done - I'm out of ideas.

Thanks Mick. You are probably right. It is no doubt the .............??????, I'll try to keep the .............???????? to a minimum and see if that helps.

DJ:
You are a foot taller than I am. Your knee armor would probably cover half of my leg. However, I may still take you up on the offer, but first I'm going to try an experiment.

[TonyT607]

..... the only thing different was that the sun was beating down on me at 75-80 degrees....

Kiddo, sounds like you might need a pair of BMW Reflect black leather riding pants....I have a pair (and just bought the matching Reflect jacket, have not worn it yet). They will keep you cooler for sure...

Good luck!

[GypsyRR]

This will be a long, but fun report of my experiment:

I ran a little experiment with the armor today just to see how
hot it gets in direct sunlight on a 72 degree sunny Texas day.
Okay – so it’s not real scientific, but at least it proves the stuff
can get pretty hot. Prolonged skin exposure to heat can cause a
burn even if it is only 105 degrees! Look at what happened with the armor.

First – here is the armor removed from the pants



Next, I tested the thermometer on myself to make sure it was
reading correctly. And since I know I am not sick, I consider
this accurate. 98.7 after being in the sun for a few minutes:



So with a Pepsi? and Persig’s book at my side, the armor and
I sat in the sun. After 20 minutes, I took it’s temperature:



Perhaps you can see the temperature better here:



I was so surprised at how fast the temperature climbed, I started taking
a picture of it as it climbed:








That was as high as the thermometer would go (a fever thermometer). After
it hit 109.7, it went to “H”, which stands for “Hot as He#%. Get the kid
to the emergency room!! NOW”. I’ve never seen the “H” before and it’s
a good thing I haven’t!!



So my conclusion at this point: This armor can hold some heat!!! But
what kind of heat will it hold when tucked in the mesh armor pocket of
the pants? Next I put the armor in the pants and sat out in the sun with
them on. It’s only 72 degrees, so it’s not too hot to wear them while I read
and think.



By now, since I got a late start, the sun was dropping behind trees and
casting shadows on the pants when the wind blew. Because of that the
pants never heated up quite as much as just the armor, but still the
temperature at the knee was intense.



After 20-30 minutes of this (and out of Pepsi?), I decided to take the
temperature at the knee:



Well, it’s no wonder my knee was red with a “sun burn” - direct skin
contact (delicate skin!) on my knee with armor at 108.4 for a prolonged
period of time!



I know armor is suppose to fit close to your body so that it stays where
it is needed, but there is something to be said for allowing space between
you and it. When I ride, the armor fits tight and close to my kneecap and
does not move from that position.

Conclusion: It is heat causing the discomfort which could possibly be
assuaged if the kneecap was allowed to escape direct contact with the armor.

Plan: Sit by a pool more often, read more books, sip more Pepsi, listen to
myself more often, and enjoy more of life…. and …….. oh yeah, loosen the
velcro on the armor pocket so the armor will move freely inside and possibly
wrap it in reflective material.
If that doesn’t work, then I’ll be needing that armor DJ.
I’ll be happy to pay for it and the shipping costs. Thanks.

[MIXR]

Nope - Can't agree unless you take a reading under the armour while sitting in the sun. Taking the outside temp of the pants is not a valid test of the temp at the kneecap.

Also, black things absorb heat far more quickly that light-coloured things. The armour in the sun would be expected to heat quickly and to a reasonable level, even on a cool day. Not a true test of its temp while under the skin of the pants.

I admire you for the effort in trying to resolve this, but you need to take it that little bit further and stick the thermometer down your leg and get a reading under the armour while it's inside the pants. Three or four readings would be nice.

The external one on the outside of the pants.
The in-between one between the pants and the armour.
The one under the armour and closest to your skin.

An extra one between the armour and the armour pocket that sits against the skin would also be nice.

PS - You don't need to have your leg inside the pants to do this. Simulate a leg by putting in a melon like a cantelope or honey-dew or something else that will conform to the armour shape. It's the temp of the armour and surrounding layers you are testing. The leg is just feeling the end result.

Edit: Other comments originally contained in this post were deleted by MIXR - Apologies to GypsyRR.

[GypsyRR]

C'mon, MIXR. Are you a Science teacher? Professor? It was just a fun post.

I quit working early just to sit in the sunshine and read. I wasn't serious about the experiment. It was just an excuse to have a nice relaxing late afternoon. But you've "thrown down the gauntlet" so I will oblige when I get the time again, and if I think I will win my argument.

[yjleesvrr]

I don't know MIXR. She seems look just fine without a brush

[MIXR]

Many years of teaching aviation engineering theory to dumb Air Force apprentices makes one a little inquisitive about experimental techniques.

I'm just not convinced about the heat transfer abilities of the CE armour. You know, Convection, Conduction, Radiation.

The heat could be convection based if the slipstream is blowing hot air under the armour, but this is doubtful.

It can't be radiation as there is no direct exposure of the kneecap skin, and we are talking non-ionizing radiation and not the other bad stuff.

It could be conduction, but we are then assuming that the inert, insulatory foam is able to conduct heat. Could be a possibility if the foam is impregnated with metallic particles for strength and wear resistance, but the thickness would preclude this anyway.

[DJ Downunder]

GypsyRR...I didn't know you lived at the Mansion...how is Mr Hefner... ...just kidding that pool looks beautiful..great pics.

About your knee armor...you are welcome to mine..just a thought..I wonder if you could drill some holes in yours to give more air flow.

That might make them cooler.

DJ

[The Velvet Monkey]

Hey Gypsy, I've got an idea that I thought might work for you, though it'll sound kinda silly.

Why don't you wrap your armour in thin tin foil. I bet it would keep the stuff cooler and won't do much (if it's in a pocket) but crinkle a little.

Might be worth a try. . .?

[MIXR]

Edit: Comments deleted my MIXR. Not constructive to the thread.

[yjleesvrr]

Hey MIXR, you're the one who posted two responses - as have I. Given that it snowed 3 inches today, I guess I don't have anything better to do

Dreaming of spring to start.

[MIXR]

EDIT: Comments deleted by MIXR - Not constructive to the thread.

[fnfalman]

Get some UnderArmor leggings and call it a day. The leggings keep the whole legs cool with the evaporative cooling effect not to mention provide another layer between the skin and the knee cup.

I just got an INOTEX pants so we'll see soon enough how hot the knee cups get under summer sun. Before this year, I either wear mesh pants (First Gear Mesh Tex) or leathers, and while they got hot, none were hot enough to irritate the skin.