How do you "filter" out poor riding partners?

[dumby]

While looking around for something else I came across this question at

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/s ... art/1/vc/1
- We've all run into this so it seems worth bringing up here too:

How do you decide in advance who you'll ride with, and if you turn out
to be incompatible, what do you do about it?

(It strikes me as being similar to going hiking or camping with somebody for the first time - if you choose badly, the whole trip is affected.)

[Guest]

How do you decide in advance who you'll ride with, and if you turn out
to be incompatible, what do you do about it?

I've met riding buddies in numerous situations. I've met them at work, rally's and "bike nites". I shoot the breeze with them and determine if their favorite book is "Proficient Motorcycling" or "2Fast 2Furious".

I approach a potential riding buddy like I would a first "date". "Let's ride for a cup of coffee". Short ride, not a lot of investment. I can pretty much determine if our riding styles are similar. I usually suggest they ride lead and I'll follow. If they take off attempting to set a new land speed record, I let them go. I allow for lots of room between myself and anyone I ride with. If I'm riding lead, I don't want someone riding up my back. Most people in cars wouldn't know we were even riding together. If they ask me why I wasn't riding in formation like all of their other buddies, that would be the last ride.

[Boxer]

If I'm in a group, and an individual refuses to give his name to anybody...He just calls himself a "guest"...Then I won't ride with that guy.

[Boxerboy]

It's a good question. The important thing is to ride your own ride.
What someone else does is their responsibility. I understand the circumstance where people together can have influence on how others may try to ride, just because they're in a group, but at some stage some intelligent thought needs to be involved.

If they look likely to kill themselves I'd choose not to ride with them, but I'd give them the initial benefit of the doubt and hope "issues" resolve either via chat or the experience. Ultimately it would come down to a judgement of their skill/confidence/machine combination.

If they wanted to ride side by side, I'd back off or wave them forward. Style and habit whilst riding should be mutually understood and at the end of a first or second ride usually that can be sorted. For someone new it's a time to learn style and technique, even discuss the pros and cons.

I'd think that riding style may be closely tied to other things also. Why do we ride or socialise in any manner with anybody? How do we decide our friendships?

If enjoying a hoon with someone and they over cook it, I'd tend to back off the pace a tad. If I do it myself I will slow down a bit. Read the signs, adjust and survive.

These days I aim to keep predominantly in my lane, choosing to leave the other side of the road alone. Only very occasionally will I use it to straighten the corner. It helps me maintain my corner exit habit of staying in my own lane.

We've all done it I'd guess and if we end up on the wrong side of the road and get away with it then we should heed it as a very good warning that our skills have been exceeded by our confidence. Personally I'd prefer it the other way around.

Going fast is fun but it doesn't have to be the fastest. It should be fun though.

[wncbmw]

My guidelines are similar to boxerboy's! Good post!

Generally, I will only ride with folks who don't mind waiting for me down the road if they are faster than me and who don't mind if I wait for them if I am faster than them. And they need to be interesting enough during stops to make it worthwhile!

Either option is better than someone riding over their head to keep up and going down.

I am also benefited by the fact that I like to ride by myself and don't feel the need to have riding partners unless I like them.

Which is why I have enjoyed meeting board members and riding with them.

[beemerphile]

IMO, He travels fastest (best), who travels alone. Alone, you can travel without consideration for others. You can take decisions without any consultation. You can accept hardship or take a long break without imposing it on others. Fastest for me means covering the most distance in a day, not breakneck speeds. I meet my buds at the destination, enjoy some quality time together, and then wave them farewell for the trip back. The only excellent twosome I can remember was a chance pair-up at breakfast coming out of the Rhinebeck rally. I met a guy who was a DEA helicopter pilot with a pocket full of federal badges and a K11RS. We rode in-sync from New York to southern Ohio where he cut west for Arizona. I don't ever in 30+ years remember a fun ride with three or more. - Lee

[jonothan]

I'm still a relatively new and inexperienced biker but for me, the adrenaline comes not from speed, though I'm not scared to ride sensibly fast if the roads are good and I'm comfortable with that, but from the sheer pleasure of being on my bike.

I will only ever ride within my ability and confidence envelope, which is quite limited as I'm a novice biker. And because I'm not a speed freak.

Just after I'd passed my test, a fellow GP and colleague, John Potter, called me to see if I wanted to ride out with him. I'd only taken delivery of my R the day before but what the hell, he was a quiet and softly-spoken, self-effacing guy so I thought yes, why not.

I arrived back home after our ride to be greeted by Elaine, my wife, who also happens to work for John as his Nurse Practitioner.

She asked if I'd had a good time, to which I said yes, but she then remarked how pale I looked. John, the quiet mild-mannered man I'd been riding with had morphed into a budding Rossi. I just couldn't even come close to keeping up.

The lesson is this.

1) Choose your riding buddies carefully
2) Do not be afraid to hang back if they're riding outside your ability and confidence envelope
3) Don't be fooled by mild-mannered people. They're the worst!

Boxer sums it up well - ride your own ride.

J

[gelbe Kulter]

The only way to know is to give it a try on a day ride. One way or another you'll get to know someone new. I've never seen anyone offended when one member of a group decides to split off and go a different route.

I would never (again) arrange to go on a long trip with someone I didn't know well. On the long trips everything becomes an issue day after day. That pretty much ruined a trip once - I didn't travel half-way around the world to race past the scenery, then spend an hour-and-a-half in a cafe. Some people I can spend a day with, but would never spend a weekend with.

I've seen some people get pretty steamed about incompatibility on day rides. I figure I can make it through a day and enjoy some aspect of the experience.

[Pat]

More often than not, in a group situation I choose to ride in the back.

I am a man with an ego and can be tempted to keep up, show off, or go faster than the guy in front of me. Not a good thing. In addition, I hate it when the fool behind me makes NO EFFORT to ride where I can see him in my rear view mirror. (I would venture to say that 75% of the riders out there don't know to, or could care less.)

If/when a rider in front of me shows signs of doubting himself and/or his abilities, I make it a point to ride slowly..... slightly slower than him/her. I want to appear in his mirror as not pushing him, giving him license to ride as slowly as I, and not feeling pressured to 'keep up' with the faster folks ahead.

It seems that about the ONLY people who make an effort to establish some guidelines before a group ride, are either Gold Wing clubs or an organizer on top of his game.
.....FEW AND FAR BETWEEN.....

You gotta have rules, the group has to know them, people should be told what the destinations and stop points are, a rider up front who is considerate of ALL the riders behind him, a sweeper at the back of the pack to watch/note/correct/assist, etc. And my biggest pet peeve is when the leader is so rude as to take off while a few (OR EVEN ONE) rider(s) is still putting gas in his tank, snapping his/her jacket, putting gloves on, not yet seated on the bike....... I HATE THE RUDE GESTURE OF TAKING OFF BEFORE EVERYBODY IS READY!

So........ with regard to knowing when or if to ride with a stranger, I apply similar guidelines:

Has the rider communicated his skill level, years of riding, or experience?
What kind of gear is he sporting?
IS HE ALL-KNOWING AND A BRAGGER, or is he humble and listens?
Does he know, or has he been apprised of group riding guidelines?
Does he ride in view of your mirror?
Is he tempting you to race or keep up with him?
Does he show-boat?
Does he attempt to mirror YOUR riding style?

I've got friends who have attended Track Days, Riding Schools, CLASS, read the books, watched the videos, etc..........
and I STILL don't like riding with them.
They change their position in the lane, frequently switching (for seemingly no reason) from favoring the left side to the right side of the lane.
They goose the throttle, and back off on the throttle, for no apparent reason.
They pass on double yellow lines, when a broken line will be up ahead shortly.
They take off and leave ya....... not giving a danm that they're actually riding with a partner.

The absolute BEST is to find a riding partner with whom you feel safe, likes to ride at the same pace as you, communicates, takes the lead or equally drops back to follow, and you ALWAYS know where he is in relation to your bike and your ride.

I will NOT hesitate to take my leave from a group ride with a bunch of fools who are gonna get me busted. At the very least, I'll ride in the back. If I DO leave them, I let somebody know.

And if you're a rider with whom I've ridden, and I seem to be scarce about joining you for a ride somewhere....... you likely are one of the riders I spoke of above. I avoid riding with people who don't respect authority (the law), who think they don't have to follow any rules, who are not considerate of their fellow riders, who brag about how fast they are, and who are quick to bellow out complaints and/or whine about the road, the ride, the food, etc......

I enjoy riding alone, and with groups...... but I try to ride my own my own ride and not get sucked into an ego contest, or ride next to some fool who doesn't have a clue. Equally, I try to keep a watchful eye on somebody who is learning and making an effort to ride safely.

[jonothan]

There was an absolutely brilliant article in a recent UK magazine on Group Riding Etiquette. I'm not sure if it was Ride or TW. It basically made a number of points about bike group behaviour which made for interesting reading. You want me to find the article, paraphrase and post?

My favourite riding buddy is a guy called Ian. He's an engineer for Scotia Helicopters at our local airport and he is a motorcycle member of the IAM (Institute of Advanced Motorists) so motorcycling is his thing.

We ride in stages, me first, then him. He then makes a critical analysis for each section. It's great learning from him. But the group etiquette is the fundamental thing which underpins everything else.

Pat's nailed it on the head really. If I were in a group, and someone rode away before I was ready to set off, I think I'd go home and have a cup of tea and a piece of cake. Far safer.

J

[darthrider]

This was penned by one of my Peckerhead buds, George "Pistol" Tuttle. "Pistol" was his tactical name in the Air Force. He will tell you a little about himself below but what he doesn't say is he is also a very experienced, highly skilled motorcycle rider...an "expert" if you will. He adapted this from Air Force SOP's related to formation flying. And interviewing every experienced rider he could find. Probably no one will agree with *everything* here - I don't - but there is a lot of useful info here.



Group Riding Etiquette

Although I have met and know most of you by now, you may not know that much about my own background. I retired from the Air Force fourteen years ago where I flew supersonic jets for twenty years. The last fifteen of which were spent flying tactical fighters, F-4 Phantoms and F-16 Fighting Falcons. During those twenty years, formation flying was a way of life. Many of the formations we flew dated back to WWI and earlier. Each particular formation was designed for very specific technical and tactical reasons using a healthy dose of common sense, all of which still apply today.

The same can be said for motorcycle formations and spacing during group rides. The aviation rationale, disciplines and some formations directly apply to motorcycle group rides. Your position within the group should be logical and based on common sense.

The following are a few common sense guidelines I use when riding in a group. Some are extremely basic but may be useful for the first time group rider or even for some of the more experienced riders who have simply not had an opportunity to give it much thought until now. Most of the following discussion is intended for group rides of around ten bikes or less. Larger groups may necessitate some modification and/or additions. Whenever possible it is best to match the skills, machines and riding/speed preferences of the group even if it requires splitting the main group into two or more sub-groups. The use of "he/him" is generic and applies to both sexes.

1) Your first priority must be safety. The fact that you are now riding in a formation should not increase your risk or that of others. For that reason everyone must ride their own ride in a manner that keeps them in their comfort zone. Never exceed your capability or comfort zone just to keep up. If the pace is too quick for you - back off until you feel comfortable. The group will eventually slow to your pace. There is no need to rush to avoid becoming lost or separated from the group

2) Discipline is essential. When riding in a group, you automatically forfeit some personal autonomy. You should normally maintain your relative position within the group unless doing so would compromise safety. Randomly changing positions is an indication of an undisciplined rider, increases risk for everyone else and should not be condoned. There may be times when changing your position in the formation is the safe thing to do. But before you do, you should have a good reason and it shouldn't be frequent.

3) Trust your leader. This is a two-way deal. You should trust your leader and he must be competent to lead. A good leader will always take into account the equipment, experience and skill level of each rider. He needs to tailor his riding accordingly. A common practice I would like to see more of is a concise briefing by the leader just before the ride. Depending on the nature of the ride and the familiarity of those within the group, this briefing may only take a minute or two. As a minimum, the leader should outline the route and establish the overall tone for the ride. Questions should be addressed before the helmets go on.

4) Pay attention and don't assume. This is so basic and elementary that it should not need to be addressed. However, far too many accidents have occurred during group rides where someone just stopped paying attention for a split second and ran into the person in front of them. Be aware of your spacing behind the rider in front in terms of time. Know your own reaction time and stopping capability and don't ride any closer in point of time. Never assume the rider in front will continue at his current pace and never look away for any longer than an instant.

When accelerating from a stop, especially in conjunction with a turn, don't assume the rider in front will continue to accelerate just because his brake light went out and he started to roll. He could subsequently see something that causes him to stop while you are looking over your shoulder for traffic and run into him. Unfortunately, this scenario has also played out all too often.

5) Each rider is directly responsible for the rider behind them. This enhances mutual support. If the rider behind you starts to fall back, so should you. If you lose sight of the person behind you, slow down for a while. If that doesn't work after a period of time - turn around. Something has obviously happened and he probably could use your help. As you can see, if the last person in the formation had his engine quit (ran out of gas) or crashed eventually the entire group would be at his aid. For larger groups the leader should identify smaller units that would stay together for such situations. If it is necessary to stop or if you decide to take a different route, it is essential that someone in the group knows where you are.

A good technique that makes it easy for the guy in front of you to see you is to position yourself so you can see his eyes in his mirror. If you can't see his eyes, he can't see you without moving his head. This is even more applicable if he only has one mirror.

6) Type of formation (staggered, trail, line abreast) and spacing. This depends on your environment (weather, road type and condition, speed, congestion, etc.), and your mission. One extreme would be in heavy stop and go rush-hour traffic at very slow speeds. A close staggered formation with no less than nose/tail clearance (unless stopped) might be the smartest formation. In city traffic a closely spaced formation will discourage cars from "cutting" in. Leave them room and they may be tempted to cut-in. Better to tighten up the spacing a bit so cars perceive the group as a homogeneous unit.

The other extreme would be a "spirited" ride out in the hill country on a twisty open road with no traffic. Here the smart formation might be an extended trail just keeping the guy in front and in back of you in sight.

For me line abreast is strictly a "show" formation suitable for funerals, processions and such and has no place in an informal group ride. It diminishes your margin of error and increases risk of a collision. However, when pulling up to a stop, stopping two abreast is probably a good idea.

Unless briefed otherwise, during the course of a typical informal group ride your position (formation and spacing) should be fluid and dictated by the overall situation. You might find yourself going from a close staggered to an extended trail formation and back again all in a relative short amount of time.

At times you may want to have increased spacing to avoid road hazards like rock chips while at the same time desire to keep the formation relatively tight. Two bikes riding close staggered in trail with other groups of two works well in this case.

Sometimes when on a two-lane road riding staggered and you find yourself on the left track it is a good idea to move over to the right momentarily when on-coming traffic passes. This is especially true for larger vehicles like 18-wheelers. This is to have a little more distance and time in case something falls off; he veers towards you, or throws a "grit blast" in his wake.

7) Establishing the spacing. Because there are so many variables that could dictate the optimum spacing, number two in the formation should normally set the spacing for the group. Nobody else is in a position to logically set or change the spacing in a fluid environment. As such, the number two rider should be experienced and have a solid understanding of group ride dynamics. In city traffic you may need to frequently make minor deviations to the group spacing to avoid running in the blind-spots of other vehicles.

Although you may be number five and can't see number two, you would only need to maintain the spacing that number four has on three. In other words, set your own spacing based on the spacing taken by the guy in front of you. Don't exceed your comfort level in order to maintain spacing.

Speed and lanes. It depends. The leader initially sets the pace but eventually the slowest rider should normally determine it. If everyone follows the guidelines above then speed will take care of itself. A modification to this might be on country rides where there is a pre-ride agreement that the faster riders will be in the front of the group and the slower riders in the rear, and that the faster group will wait at all turn-decision points until the second group catches up. A common misconception is that going slower is always safer. Not true. On our superslabs, going slower can get you killed.

With few exceptions, the leader must tailor aggressiveness and average speed to the lowest level of capability in the group. Capability is defined and limited by skill, experience, machine or a combination of all three. Speed preferences should be discussed and agreed upon before the ride begins.

On multilane roads the group should strive to be in the same lane as the leader. However, don't compromise safety to get there. If a car cuts into the formation, analyze the best course of action to get back in formation. You might just want to ride it out behind the car for a while if other options aren't obvious.

Normally on our superslabs the leader should be in what he considers to be the safest lane for conditions. Many times with modern bikes and competent riders this is the furthest left lane going just slightly faster than the general traffic flow. This limits, but doesn't negate your vulnerability from the rear by the hyper-speeders. Generally the right lane has the most hazards in the form of exiting and entering cars at sometimes drastically different speeds. A middle lane also has its hazards. In a middle lane, you are subject to “crazies” on both sides of you and it is difficult to “isolate" the threat.

In conclusion, these are just a few of my thoughts on riding in a group. I'm sure there are other ideas, techniques or guidelines that I missed. I hope that this will stimulate a discussion on the subject and would like to solicit your thoughts and comments for future publication. The more we learn and talk about group riding the better off (and safer) we will be while riding in a group. Thanks for your time. Ride safe!

[JCsman]

The leader initially sets the pace but eventually the slowest rider should normally determine it.

Cool. I get to set the pace! ("eventually")

Interesting write up, thanks Darth (or should I say, Pistol?). Plenty of food for thought.

On the other end of the group ride spectrum:
I went on a (my first, and perhaps last) "poker run" for a favorite charity this fall. Something quite different than an organized group, to say the least. At a stop one novice rider told us she was nervous about the curves in the section ahead. But she didn't want her husband to ride behind her. I told her I'd take that slot. Her husband (a 6 foot 3 inch poster boy for Bad Azz Biker, Inc.) led her off. We left in staggered formation and I left a fairly generous cushion. She slowed a bit more than the general group at the approach to curves. But between her husband and I adjusting for her she was never crowded nor did she appear to fall too far off the group gap.

All was well until some fool decided the group just wasn't riding at a spirited enough pace for his skills. He blasted (loud, straight pipes, an obvious devotee to safety) around my right hand elbow, cut closely left of her then proceeded across a double yellow line to pass a large set of riders.

The lady in front of me wobbled a bit, recovered and all was well until the next stop.

That is where her husband delivered an absolutely stirring rider safety lecture to the guy who gunned around his wife. I'm not sure there were many real riding tips in the lecture. But there were graphic descriptions of potential injury.

[darthrider]

That is where her husband delivered an absolutely stirring rider safety lecture to the guy who gunned around his wife. I'm not sure there were many real riding tips in the lecture. But there were graphic descriptions of potential injury.

Ya gotta love it!

[ButtHead]

[quote="Pat"]
And if you're a rider with whom I've ridden, and I seem to be scarce about joining you for a ride somewhere....... you likely are one of the riders I spoke of above. I avoid riding with people who don't respect authority (the law), who think they don't have to follow any rules, who are not considerate of their fellow riders, who brag about how fast they are, and who are quick to bellow out complaints and/or whine about the road, the ride, the food, etc......



And here I thought it was just cause I was a ButtHead...
ButtHead

[Pat]

Steve.......

You ever have to ride with Craig taking the forward position on a freeway, country road, ANYWHERE!(?) He's one of the people about whom I speak. He can be a space cadet, wonder in the lane, change his speed, and change his mind often. He taxes my patience. Thank God he doesn't know how to navigate to this section to read this........

YOU on the other hand, are the smoothest, most courteous, and delightful rider to join for a ride in a one-on-one situation. HEY, I'M NOT GETTING FRESH WITH YOU! I really enjoy riding behind you. It's just that I'm not quite the animal ("Big Dawgs") that you and your gang are.
Anytime a dozen guys can get together and cover a quick 450 miles danm near every (other) weekend, on back roads, goat trails, isolated 20 mile drag strips, and mini Sears Points in 6 hours TO INCLUDE STOPPING FOR LUNCH......!?!?!?!
Well, I just gotta stay on the porch (as it were).......

[ButtHead]

Steve.......
YOU on the other hand, are the smoothest, most courteous, and delightful rider to join for a ride in a one-on-one situation. HEY, I'M NOT GETTING FRESH WITH YOU! I really enjoy riding behind you. It's just that I'm not quite the animal ("Big Dawgs") that you and your gang are.
Anytime a dozen guys can get together and cover a quick 450 miles danm near every (other) weekend, on back roads, goat trails, isolated 20 mile drag strips, and mini Sears Points in 6 hours TO INCLUDE STOPPING FOR LUNCH......!?!?!?!
Well, I just gotta stay on the porch (as it were).......

Well, OK... and thank you! Butt I'm still a ButtHead!
And I hope you and the folks on this list all have a great Thanksgiving. I love lurking and picking up riding tips. Articles such as that Peckerhead writing on 'Riding Etiquette' was great, ranks up there with 'The Pace'...
ButtHead