Wilbers suspension change question

[wust588]

There must be quite a few 1200R owners on here who have replaced their OEM suspension with Wilbers.
As a matter of interest what spring rates did you have?
I ask this because a month ago I removed my ESA set up and bought a pair of Wilbers (manual preload type).
I weigh just a tad under 70Kg. The specialist allowed 75Kg for me and an extra 20Kg for luggage. I don't carry a passenger.
The rear is a 59/59-180-165 and the front a 46/46-63-185.

The OEM ESA springs are (they don't give an inside spring dia, but measure the same as the Wilbers)
Rear (59/59)-170-178 and front, (46/46)- 56-147.
I found the ESA rock hard -great on smooth roads but very harsh everywhere else.
The Wilbers are much the same.
What are other owners experiences?
Many thanks.

[dbrick]

I replaced my bike's stock non-ESA shock with a Wilbers. The first spring supplied by Wilbers (based on the weight of my gear and me) was a 220-150 (those are the last two numbers printed on the spring, the spring rate and length); at about 100kg, I'm a heavier guy than you. I found the ride too stiff on all but the smoothest roads. I changed to a 210-150 spring, which is much much better. I also ride solo almost all of the time.

One note: to accomplish the initial setup, Wilbers wanted to know the total weight of everything the bike regularly carries: me, what I'm wearing, saddlebags, tools, misc junk under the seat. Actually weighing things is a good idea: while I knew what I weighed, the total of everything else was considerably higher than I'd expected.

[websterize]

I ask this because a month ago I removed my ESA set up and bought a pair of Wilbers (manual preload type). …

What errors, if any, did the bike throw when you reinstalled with non-ESA shocks?

[wust588]

I ask this because a month ago I removed my ESA set up and bought a pair of Wilbers (manual preload type). …

What errors, if any, did the bike throw when you reinstalled with non-ESA shocks?

Bill,
I'm finding that when the front wheel hits even small bumps the handlebars kick hard through my arms, then the backend kicks me up the backside.
Travelling at say 50mph on a poor stretch of road, the suspension just doesn't soak up any of the bumps, and feels rigid.
Backing off the damping makes things worse. If the bike drops into a hollow, it trys to launch itself (and me) into the air.
With both suspension setups, it seems oversprung.
Perhaps at 66 years old I have to accept that, that is the nature of modern suspension!
I rode an R1100RS for 5 years up to a couple of years ago, and I had no trouble with that.

[dbrick]

wust588, your age and prior experience is the same as mine. I'm 65, rode an R1100RSL for eleven years, and with Ohlins shocks the ride was quite plush.

At the beginning, the R was worse in this regard, and rather harsh. With a softer spring, as I posted above, both static and dynamic sags are in range and the ride is much improved. Perhaps a shock with adjustable high-speed damping (that is, one could reduce damping of the shock piston in high-acceleration piston movements) would do better over road irregularities, but for me the softer spring is close enough.

I also wonder that the different seat design affects the ride: the Oilhead had a much more resilient and higher seat than the R has, and some of the impacts would have been absorbed by the seat.

[websterize]

Forgive me for being dense above. (I am completely ignorant about the mechanics of a suspension swap.)

Bottom line: With your new set-up, are there any error lamps on the instruments that something is amiss with the ESA?

Rather than ride quality, I was hoping you could elaborate on deactivation (removal?) of your ESA setup. I was under the impression that R12R's with ESA required specific shock replacements. In other words, I couldn't install Ohlins, et al and expect them to work with the bike's ESA ecosystem. Is this not the case? I assume you had to unplug the ESA struts to put on the new ones. The ESA button on the switch gear is inactive, no?

I got a deal on my spec-bike with ESA that had been on the dealership floor for six months. If I had ordered the bike, I would have omitted ESA and applied the savings to aftermarket shocks.

[deilenberger]

Bill,
I'm finding that when the front wheel hits even small bumps the handlebars kick hard through my arms, then the backend kicks me up the backside.
Travelling at say 50mph on a poor stretch of road, the suspension just doesn't soak up any of the bumps, and feels rigid.
Backing off the damping makes things worse. If the bike drops into a hollow, it trys to launch itself (and me) into the air.
With both suspension setups, it seems oversprung.
Perhaps at 66 years old I have to accept that, that is the nature of modern suspension!
I rode an R1100RS for 5 years up to a couple of years ago, and I had no trouble with that.

I'm not Bill, but in regards to your problem..

What sort of dynamic preload are you seeing?

http://www.eilenberger.net/Suspension/suspension.htm

If you have too little preload the problem may not be too hard a spring, it may be you're bottoming out the suspension. It's tricky because it feels like too hard a spring.

I had my HyperPro rear rebuilt yesterday - and despite the settings being at least close to what they were before the rebuild, I feel it will be worthwhile to spend an afternoon circling my test-route. Would have done it today, but I got done with the club newsletter a bit late, and the school buses were already clogging up the roads.

Never assume the shocks are setup out of the box for you - despite what the vendor says. Spend a few hours setting them up yourself and you're likely to be much happier with the investment. That said - many vendors do install a too-stiff spring assuming you don't include everything you have on the bike when you tell them your loaded weight. This can be determined with a tie-wrap on the front fork leg and if Wilbers includes an O ring marker on the rear shock shaft - that should also be checked.

[wust588]

Bill,
Sorry I misunderstood your question.
The original ESA s/absorbers were removed and the electrical plugs disconnected.
As it happens no errors have shown on the instruments at all, and the ESA control is not utilised with the Wilbers set-up.
I could have chosen to have the OEM- ESA gubbins built into the Wilbers s/absorbers, but went for the cheaper manual version instead.

dbrick,
I couldn't agree more about the comparison between the R1200R and R1100RS seats.
I have the "sport" seat on the 1200 and it is very poor compared to the all day comfort of the seat on the R1100RS, which IMO is very supportive, and road shock absorbing.

Don,
I have dialled in some rear preload, and AFAIK, the dampers are not bottoming out.
I smeared some thin grease to the u/side of the damper tubes (without any preload), and none has touched the bump stop rubbers.
I confess to not having not completed the "sag" routine, outlined in your suspension guide, but will be having a go at that.
I'm trying one thing at a time, and seeing how the bike reacts.

Thanks everybody, for your help.

[hjsbmw]

Your shocks are sprung for your weight plus luggage. Is that how you have the bike loaded when you try the shocks?
How close to the bumper does the shock travel? It should not only use a fraction of the travel. That would indicate incorrect sag or even a spring that's too stiff.
How are your tires / tyres? If they are worn you will feel small bumps more pronounced than with a lot of profile.

As Don said, you have to do some basic setup for sag to make a good evaluation. Damping, in my experience, is velocity dependent, i.e. the same setup and road will feel differently depending on how fast you ride. Makes sense if you consider that the reaction speed of the shock should match the speed of rolling over things.

Finally, I also find the front end harsh occasionally. I don't know why, but have written it off to suspension characteristics. I have played with the shock setup a good deal. Maybe one needs a fully adjustable front shock with preload and full compression and rebound adjustment. Mine only has preload and rebound (and is Hyperpro, not Wilbers, but I think they are similar).

[deilenberger]

As mentioned - I had my HyperPro rear shock rebuilt on Monday. Tuesday I took it for a ride and wasn't terribly happy, the suspension seemed awfully busy. While it was apart I had Klaus set the preload adjuster to a position where I wouldn't need to dial in any preload (the remote hydraulic preload adjuster) for normal riding, just to take the strain off the preload adjuster. At first I thought that was the problem, but the dynamic sag was the same as what I had before (with about 4.5mm preload dialed in) so I figured out that wasn't the problem.

Tweaked the adjustments last night in the garage. My favorite setup route has road construction right in the middle of it, closing the road.. dammit. Dialed in a bit more rebound damping, dialed out a bit of compression damping, and today it was like a different shock. The adjustments were really minor. One click less on the high-speed and low-speed compression, and about 1/2 turn harder for the rebound damper.

Smooth roads again. Things that were bothering me yesterday were gone today. The compression settings were now what they were before the rebuild, the rebound setting is close to where I had it before the rebuild (without any gas, the reason for the rebuild - the rebound wheel has no clicks, so I had to go by turns.. I did try to record the settings this time before disassembly.)

So the lesson is - be fairly minor changes can make a big difference. I hoping to get it out again on my setup course once the road is open again.. and do the final tweaking.

FWIW - the oil in the shock had at least 45,000 miles on it, and it didn't look, or smell bad. Klaus has seen much worse. I saw Ted Porter posted somewhere that he has seen awful looking oil coming out of Ohlins at 25,000 mile rebuilds - so I wonder what's up with that.

A second FWIW - a misadjusted/worn rear shock can cause the front end to feel harsh. The weight bias of the R12R is toward the rear, and that is the more significant end to do a better shock on.

[David R]

As mentioned - I had my HyperPro rear shock rebuilt on Monday. Tuesday I took it for a ride and wasn't terribly happy, the suspension seemed awfully busy. While it was apart I had Klaus set the preload adjuster to a position where I wouldn't need to dial in any preload (the remote hydraulic preload adjuster) for normal riding, just to take the strain off the preload adjuster. At first I thought that was the problem, but the dynamic sag was the same as what I had before (with about 4.5mm preload dialed in) so I figured out that wasn't the problem.

Snip.

I did the same with my stock rear shock. I added a 3.2mm (1/8") spacer under the spring so sag was @ 45 mm with no preload adjustment bike at regular load. I have a shim for the front too. Have not removed the shock to install it. I would like to see front sag at 35 mm instead of 46 the way it came from the factory. I was not concerned at first but then I learned ALL the suspension travel I get is 106mm not the advertised 120mm.

I have a Zip tie on the front fork. Never thought of the grease on the rear shock shaft. Thanks for the idea. Going to do it today.

Thank you
David

[wust588]

Your shocks are sprung for your weight plus luggage. Is that how you have the bike loaded when you try the shocks?
How close to the bumper does the shock travel? It should not only use a fraction of the travel. That would indicate incorrect sag or even a spring that's too stiff.
How are your tires / tyres? If they are worn you will feel small bumps more pronounced than with a lot of profile.

As Don said, you have to do some basic setup for sag to make a good evaluation. Damping, in my experience, is velocity dependent, i.e. the same setup and road will feel differently depending on how fast you ride. Makes sense if you consider that the reaction speed of the shock should match the speed of rolling over things.

Finally, I also find the front end harsh occasionally. I don't know why, but have written it off to suspension characteristics. I have played with the shock setup a good deal. Maybe one needs a fully adjustable front shock with preload and full compression and rebound adjustment. Mine only has preload and rebound (and is Hyperpro, not Wilbers, but I think they are similar).

I think you may have hit on a good point.
The Wilbers s/absorbers specialist (at his recommendation) did make allowance of 20kg of luggage, when in actual fact I don't ride routinely with any at all.
It was one of the things I feared, that I would end up with springs the same rate as the originals. That's what has happened.
I've contacted the supplier and mentioned my findings. They have ordered a pair of slightly softer springs. Wilbers Germany told them that the 1200R is a "sports" bike, and needs hard springs.
As for the tyres, you may be right. They are about two thirds worn.
I can't tell how close to the bump stops the shocks get as yet.
There is no adjustment on the Wilbers for compression damping, so I am not sure how this works on this type of damper.
Thanks for your suggestions.

[deilenberger]

Staffs-UK, (odd name.. but you're British so that's OK.. )

What tire pressure are you running? I'd suggest trying BMW's original R1200R recommendation - 32PSI/front, 36PSI/rear at 20C (and yes temperature does make a difference, a fairly significant one actually.) Many people run higher pressures in the hopes of getting longer tire life. I haven't seen much evidence that helps tire life, but I have heard that people who then set to the BMW recommended pressure are happily surprised with the ride quality improvement they experience.

[wust588]

Staffs-UK, (odd name.. but you're British so that's OK.. )

What tire pressure are you running? I'd suggest trying BMW's original R1200R recommendation - 32PSI/front, 36PSI/rear at 20C (and yes temperature does make a difference, a fairly significant one actually.) Many people run higher pressures in the hopes of getting longer tire life. I haven't seen much evidence that helps tire life, but I have heard that people who then set to the BMW recommended pressure are happily surprised with the ride quality improvement they experience.

Don,
Yes, time to reveal my true identity! Signature modified accordingly.
Good point about the tyres (sorry tires! we're still using ancient English - the road quality han't changed much either.....), I did reduce them to the pressures you suggest when I first rode the bike, but it didn't feel any different.
I am wondering whether there might be a difference in compliance between different makes of tyre?
Ta for the continued support.

[Bob Ain't Stoppin']

I had similar problem with harsh front end after putting on Ohlins. The original stock front shock would bottom out on any moderate bump in the road. With the Ohlins, the bottoming was solved and I was comfortable that the spring was correct. But I was getting a good hit through the bars on bumps.

My shock has only rebound damping adjustment.

At the MOA rally in PA, I cornered the Ohlins guy and asked him about this. He said 'back off the adjuster a bit'. In discussion, he confirmed that the adjuster affects both compression and rebound. So I backed off the adjuster (two clicks as I recall) and it made a world of difference. Also, no lack of rebound damping. So now I'm a happy camper.

You might want to try this on your Wilburs.

[deilenberger]

One thing with damping adjustments - the HyperPro book that comes with their shocks notes that "less is more.." - they suggest using as little damping as possible and allowing the spring to work in absorbing the bumps. Sounds like good advice to me.

[hjsbmw]

One thing with damping adjustments - the HyperPro book that comes with their shocks notes that "less is more.." - they suggest using as little damping as possible and allowing the spring to work in absorbing the bumps. Sounds like good advice to me.

The harshness I notice is with abrupt bumps: 1" deep holes in the pavement, raised or recessed sewer lids, bridge seams, sometimes tree roots under asphalt. The easiest to test / reproduce this would be by laying a 1" thick board on the road and riding over it at various speeds. Do you guys not feel a kick through the handlebars?

[Bob Ain't Stoppin']

[quote= Do you guys not feel a kick through the handlebars?[/quote]

This is what I had before reducing the damping as described earlier. The suspension has to react to any input. So you are going to get something through the bars. If it's excessive, then reduce the damping.

You might want to try reducing the damping adjustment 'a lot' (say a turn and a half) and then riding with what you know to be insufficient damping. Then start increasing the damping until the bike settles down and doesn't pogo anymore.

As always with these things, you should stroke the adjustment full range and record where you are starting from and where you go to so that you can reproduce previous settings when needed.

Don said it right with the less is better in the damping department. You just want enough to control the wheel. No more.

[deilenberger]

One thing with damping adjustments - the HyperPro book that comes with their shocks notes that "less is more.." - they suggest using as little damping as possible and allowing the spring to work in absorbing the bumps. Sounds like good advice to me.

The harshness I notice is with abrupt bumps: 1" deep holes in the pavement, raised or recessed sewer lids, bridge seams, sometimes tree roots under asphalt. The easiest to test / reproduce this would be by laying a 1" thick board on the road and riding over it at various speeds. Do you guys not feel a kick through the handlebars?

That's not right. I can feel some of those sort of things, but the majority are non-issues with no real bump coming through the bars (and certainly no kick.)

One thing you might think of trying - is adding a "tell" to the front fork sliders somehow. Easy on my bike since I can see my auxiliary light brackets rather easily while riding. I've thought of attaching a small dowel to them that sticks up so the top is right below the windshield so I could even better see the response of the front suspension to bumps/undulations. Hasn't been a real high priority since I'm pretty happy with my suspension setup. The stock shocks were jarring when hitting that sort of bump - the Hyperpro's eliminated that jarring sensation, and also provided better control in cornering (the suspension doesn't compress as much from cornering forces, so the geometry stays the same.) I believe you have a Wilbers on the front? Does it have rebound adjustment (at the bottom of the shock)? Try backing it off a half-turn, that should tell you if it was set too high. Then start making minor adjustments in either direction of the 1/2 turn to see which way makes it improve. Perhaps 2 clicks. When it stops improving it's adjusted correctly. And yes - on a simple shock (no remote reservoir, no high/low speed compression damping adjustments) - while the single adjustment is primarily a rebound adjustment, it does also change the compression damping to some extent.