Castrol 10W60 TWS..

[r1200rclassic]

Thoughts on using Castrol 10W60 TWS fully synthetic German motor oil in the crankcase? I've read a lot of amazing things about this stuff and I happen to have 4 quarts of this liquid gold at my disposal ($15/quart normal price). I'm in a moderate climate that doesn't dip much below 20F and gets into the 80's and 90's in Summer..

Any pro's or con's?

[r1200rclassic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

[MTBeemer]

One big con. It is not the oil recommended by the engineers who designed the engine. They just might know what they are talking about.

[r1200rclassic]

One big con. It is not the oil recommended by the engineers who designed the engine. They just might know what they are talking about.

good point, except oddly the dealer wants to use 20W-50 and the manual states nothing about this either... I hear there are quite a few more approved oils than just what is in the back of the owners manual.. I might have to make some calls and see if I can get some of what the dealers have at their disposal.

[deilenberger]

One big con. It is not the oil recommended by the engineers who designed the engine. They just might know what they are talking about.

Interesting. You base your opinion on? And what specific lubricant DO the engineers recommend? Brand/weight?

This is the oil that BMW spec's for the M series engines that produce > 100hp/liter. It's made in Germany, and is a full synthetic with high levels of ZDDP extreme pressure additives. I use it in my S54 engine in my M-Coupe, and had used it in the S54 engine in my M3 (it is the only oil BMW specifies for these high output, high-rev engines.)

I've also had it analyzed by Blackstone Labs - both a virgin (unused sample) and many samples with up to 10,000 miles on them. It's an amazingly stable oil - viscosity, ash-point, and additive packages remain useable and within original oil specifications at 10,000 miles in the S54 engine. I see no reason not to use it in a boxer engine, IMHO - it is a superior oil.

Your data is?

BTW - with a BMW-CCA discount, my local BMW cage dealer sells it for less then the BMW branded Golden Spectro oil from the BMW motorcycle dealer. And it's a liter bottle - so it's even a bit more economical.

[ammolab]

One big con. It is not the oil recommended by the engineers who designed the engine. They just might know what they are talking about.

I see no reason not to use it in a boxer engine, IMHO - it is a superior oil.
Your data is?

.

I suspect his point was that a 10W-60 oil is outside the viscosity range listed in his owners manual.

I too have this oil in the garage for my M Coupe and have been tempted to put it in my K75 C with 140,000 miles on the clock....but as my R1200R is still in warranty and runs quite well on the oils listed in the manual, I will save the TWS for later.

[r1200rclassic]

One big con. It is not the oil recommended by the engineers who designed the engine. They just might know what they are talking about.

I see no reason not to use it in a boxer engine, IMHO - it is a superior oil.
Your data is?

.

I suspect his point was that a 10W-60 oil is outside the viscosity range listed in his owners manual.

I too have this oil in the garage for my M Coupe and have been tempted to put it in my K75 C with 140,000 miles on the clock....but as my R1200R is still in warranty and runs quite well on the oils listed in the manual, I will save the TWS for later.

I'm willing to bet the oil isn't listed because it's truly an "overkill" oil and hard to find. Being a true full synthetic, the 60 number flows more like a 50 mineral or synthetic blend.. I don't work as an attorney, but I doubt BMW would have a leg to stand on with warranty issues stemming form the oil they require in their top of the line engines. Moreover, there is very little you can put into the engine of a car/bike today that's API rated that will do any harm.... it's just all degrees of good.

[MTBeemer]

Yes I base it on the owner's manual. Wow, got sucked into an oil thread.

We all will do what we convince ourselves is the best thing. Some use rationalization and extrapolation to make their decision about oil. It's about like discussing religion. I just try following what the manufacturer recommends; don't see 60 weight oil mentioned in my owner's manual. I doubt using it will hurt anything, but then I am just using rationalization and extrapolation to make that call.

[websterize]

I've seen "BMW recommends Castrol" stickers under hoods and in some BMW owner's manuals. (They seem to like BP fuel, too.) The key to the 10W60 question isn't brand, though. It is how you interpret ≥.

Here are some oil recommendations from the February 2008 edition of the owner's manual, the one applicable to my bike (9/08 build date):



Note the greater than/equal to (≥) symbol on all but one of the viscosity classes, including "SAE 10 W- ≥50". You could extrapolate that 10W60 is A-ok, no?

There's also the "Lubricant | Engine oil 20W-50" row. As the OP wrote, you won't find "20W50" in the 2011+ owner's manuals. That could be why the dealer wants to use that grade -- he's applying the old recommendation to your Classic.

If you're an owner's manual junkie, check out Motorrad's international site. They've got your bike's manual in PDF. There are four editions between 2006-2010, and two for the DOHC models.

[r1200rclassic]

Good stuff Bill, yeah I had a long chat with my local dealer about the owners manual and oil... in a nutshell he said the list in the current 2011-2012 R1200R manual is a non-exculusionary list... meaning that they list common use viscosity and grade but not ALL permissible viscosity and grade... mainly focusing on how easy it is to get or expensive in some countries since the manual is used all over the world. The exclusion of 20W-50 is one example, as is 10W60...

Anecdotally, I have now been running it all day and it's running beautifully... too early to tell anything other than I can see the oil level rise in the window in the same measured time it took the 10-50 dino oil that was in there earlier... i.e. startup oil pressure is unaffected.

One other observation is the it's running cooler.... in traffic and also in a static check of the engine temp, I noticed 1 bar lower temps overall... I've yet to climb to the 1 bar from the top I get in long traffic even though I sat for 25+ min today in traffic..

I'd say this oil is a thumbs up for me, and I'll get it check when I drain it by a reputable lab and see what we find then.

[boxermoose]

FWIW 10W60 Aquip oil is speced in the newer Guzzis and, I believe, some of the Husky models.

The owners have the exact same arguments

[r1200rclassic]

Here is a response I got from BMW in the UK, which I figured would actually do the leg work and get me a real answer, and I was right.

Dear xyz

Thank you for your email July 24, 2012, regarding your BMW R 1200 R.

I have taken the opportunity to speak with our Technical Department and they have advised that whilst Castrol TWS is not the recommended oil which we would always advocate, it has in the past been recommended for the HP2 Sport which has a very similar engine. In this instance, where the gearbox and clutch are separate from the engine oil supply we have no objection to the use of Castrol TWS in your BMW R 1200 R.

However, as this has been untested may I kindly recommend that you contact your preferred approved dealership for further guidance on the correct oil for your motorcycle. For your convenience, I have included a link to our dealer locator:

http://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/find-a-dealer/

If I can be if any future assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely

BMW UK
Customer Information Executive
Ellesfield Avenue
Bracknell RG12 8TA
Tel: +44 (0)870 5050 160
Fax: +44 (0)870 5050 205
Mailto: [email protected]
URL: http://www.bmw.co.uk

pretty much a CYA answer that won't admit advantage or harm.... this is what happens when Lawyers get involved in the happenings of the world!

common sense of course would say not to use this oil in very cold winter climates, or even moderately cold climates... It's basically a "Summer" oil.

[Woland]

Here is a response I got from BMW in the UK, which I figured would actually do the leg work and get me a real answer, and I was right.

However, as this has been untested may I kindly recommend that you contact your preferred approved dealership for further guidance on the correct oil for your motorcycle.

I love those corporate non answers.

Still it does confirm what the manual says, the ≥ is the key here. I also really like how many seems to think oil specs have magic properties.

[r1200rclassic]

I've seen "BMW recommends Castrol" stickers under hoods and in some BMW owner's manuals. (They seem to like BP fuel, too.) The key to the 10W60 question isn't brand, though. It is how you interpret ≥.

Here are some oil recommendations from the February 2008 edition of the owner's manual, the one applicable to my bike (9/08 build date):



Note the greater than/equal to (≥) symbol on all but one of the viscosity classes, including "SAE 10 W- ≥50". You could extrapolate that 10W60 is A-ok, no?

There's also the "Lubricant | Engine oil 20W-50" row. As the OP wrote, you won't find "20W50" in the 2011+ owner's manuals. That could be why the dealer wants to use that grade -- he's applying the old recommendation to your Classic.

If you're an owner's manual junkie, check out Motorrad's international site. They've got your bike's manual in PDF. There are four editions between 2006-2010, and two for the DOHC models.

I think this chart which I stole from MOA forums says it all... when you use a high quality synthetic like TWS, the >50 is no problem... this chart is from a 2008 RT

Permissible viscosity classes
SAE 5 W- ≥30 -20...20 °C, Operation at low temperatures
SAE 10 W-40 -10...30 °C, Operation at moderate temperatures
SAE 15 W- ≥40 ≥0 °C
SAE 20 W- ≥40 ≥0 °C
SAE 5 W- ≥50 ≥-20 °C, High-grade and synthetic oils, operation
in all temperature ranges
SAE 10 W- ≥50 ≥-20 °C, High-grade and synthetic oils, operation
in all temperature ranges

[ammolab]

common sense of course would say not to use this oil in very cold winter climates, or even moderately cold climates... It's basically a "Summer" oil.

If a 10W-50 synthetic oil is charted by BMW as good down to Minus 4degrees F...I would think that TWS 10W-60 would be just as good for a "winter oil" or all temperatures that a sane rider would encounter.

Both of them are rated "10W" for cold temperature viscosity. The 50vs60 only comes into play at higher oil temperature.

[BLAIR1200R]

So, just to be clear, you can purchase Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 at BMW auto dealerships?

A search on the Castrol USA site doesn't find this product... (yeah, I read the part about it being made in Germany...)

They do however show a motorcycle specific oil, RS Racing RT in a 10W-50 and a web search revealed that Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 was previously known as Castrol Formula RS 10W-60. . . "the oil is the same, only the name has changed"

After my 6K service, I'm changing my own oil as I've always done with my bikes ... other than mods, that about the extent of my wrench turning.

[parkec]

Is Casterol 20-60 TWS Technically a farkle?

[r1200rclassic]

So, just to be clear, you can purchase Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 at BMW auto dealerships?

A search on the Castrol USA site doesn't find this product... (yeah, I read the part about it being made in Germany...)

They do however show a motorcycle specific oil, RS Racing RT in a 10W-50 and a web search revealed that Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 was previously known as Castrol Formula RS 10W-60. . . "the oil is the same, only the name has changed"

After my 6K service, I'm changing my own oil as I've always done with my bikes ... other than mods, that about the extent of my wrench turning.

yes, only at the BMW car dealer.

[ammolab]

So, just to be clear, you can purchase Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 at BMW auto dealerships?

A search on the Castrol USA site doesn't find this product... (yeah, I read the part about it being made in Germany...)

They do however show a motorcycle specific oil, RS Racing RT in a 10W-50 and a web search revealed that Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 was previously known as Castrol Formula RS 10W-60. . . "the oil is the same, only the name has changed"

After my 6K service, I'm changing my own oil as I've always done with my bikes ... other than mods, that about the extent of my wrench turning.

yes, only at the BMW car dealer.

Many online BMW tuners and other Auto Performance sellers sell TWS 10W-60 as well. I live a 140+ miles from a BMW dealer and have never had trouble getting a fresh batch of TWS online.

[BLAIR1200R]

Thanks guys, I'll check both my local dealers and online as well.

I have a few miles to go before the next change...