Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

This section is dedicated to the new Rockster version of the R1150R.

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boxermania
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Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by boxermania »

Since our mounts are getting older and in need of servicing, along with recent posts regarding shocks and potential replacements, I felt compelled to address the issue and hopefully make future selection less complicated.

This is not a full fledged treatise but a general outline as to how the items come together.

There are basically two types of shocks, rebuildable and not.
It has been a well documented fact that BMW shocks, specially the rear can loose their effectiveness around 30K miles. This item needs to be qualified on the basis of how the bike is being used and the skill level of the rider.
The Boxer is fitted with a style usually referred as coil over, where the shock and the coil spring are incorporated in one unit.
Taking the shock as an entity and removing compression and rebound adjustments rom the equation, the critical dimension is the distance (center to center) of the mounting points.
Critical measurements that affect the coil springs are the number of free coils (complete coils) and the OD of the coil, as those define the compressibility of the spring, usually referred to as the K constant, the units being pounds/inch compression. (kg/mm)

Let us now look at what are the issues

Shock center to center distance
As long as the mounting points are the same, hole in bushing or clevis, as the original fitment, the center to center distance is within 1/2" (to be safe), the bike swing arm can accommodate the increase/decrease in swing without any interference with the chassis/body of the bike the shocks will probably fit. The best way is to visually compare or request the above measurements from the seller. Let me explain:

Our Boxers have about 4+ inches of travel at the rear, if you install a 1/2" longer shock (with the same K constant coil spring) the rear of the bike will go up the amount of the length increase times the length of the acting arm (that would be the length from the center of the shock lower attachment point to the center of the rear wheel), exactly the opposite will happen if the shock is 1/2" shorter (we are also assuming that the preload, is out of the equation)

Basically the same will also take place at the front. Let me add another little twist, let us assume that your replacement is 1/2" short than original, everything else being equal and you want to retain the original front height, assuming the shock has enough thread at the top stem one can shim the distance (between the shock and the mount) the required amount to attain the desired result.

Coil springs
These are selected at the factory based on the weight of an "average" rider and adding, sufficient preload capacity, in our case, to accommodate two up riding and luggage. Generally a weight around 170 pounds has been used to size the spring. Marketing size riders, like yours truly, will find the basic setting too soft and will generally increase the preload to 80% to 90% of max and so will those riders that will track the bike, but I digress.

OEM vs. aftermarket shocks
Generally speaking it's all in the eye and pockets of the beholder and since our training is based on getting the best for the least amount it really becomes a personal choice. However, in this case the common denominators are:

OEM - Expensive and not rebuildable
Aftermarket - Typically 1.5 more expensive but they are better quality, last longer and are rebuildable
Another obscure solution - There is an outfit in Canada, the name escapes me, which will rebuild any non rebuildable shock for a couple of hundred dollars. This outfit has its niche in the antique and collectable market. Essentially do is mount the shock on a lathe and cut the tube at the bottom, they clean the parts, replace the seals, add oil and weld it shut.

Coil spring replacement - Normally this will take place under the following conditions A) It breaks ,rare B) The rider's avoirdupois is well beyond the original fitment and C) The bike will be used under a very specific set of conditions.

Hopefully this will help those that will be venturing into the "shock zone" in the near future...... :-k :-k
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by riceburner »

Just for everyone's info as well - the R1150R rear shock IS shorter than that fitted to the Rockster - I've just replaced mine (very easy to do. :) ) and will post piccies sometime this weekend. I'd say it's roughly 1/2" shorter, at minimum preload.
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by Ves »

boxermania wrote:....
Critical measurements that affect the coil springs are the number of free coils (complete coils) and the OD of the coil, as those define the compressibility of the spring, usually referred to as the K constant, the units being pounds/inch compression. (kg/mm)

... if you install a 1/2" longer shock (with the same K constant coil spring) the rear of the bike will go up the amount of the length increase times the length of the acting arm (that would be the length from the center of the shock lower attachment point to the center of the rear wheel), exactly the opposite will happen if the shock is 1/2" shorter (we are also assuming that the preload, is out of the equation)

...
The diameter of the spring wire is also important. But it's all accounted for in the spring constant K.

The amount of increase or decrease in ride height you get by installing a longer or shorter shock has to do with the ratio of the distance from the swingarm pivot to the shock vs. from the swingarm pivot to the rear axle (or in the case of the BMW telelever, the distance from the A-arm pivot to the shock and balljoint). For example lets assume that the distance from the swing arm pivot to the lower shock mount is 6" and the distance from the swingarm pivot to the rear axle is 12". That's a 2:1 ratio. Which means if you put in a 1/2" longer shock you will get approximately 1" of additional ride height. If the distances are 6" vs. 18", that's 3:1, and you will get 1.5 inches for your 1/2" shock difference.
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by Ves »

riceburner wrote:Just for everyone's info as well - the R1150R rear shock IS shorter than that fitted to the Rockster - I've just replaced mine (very easy to do. :) ) and will post piccies sometime this weekend. I'd say it's roughly 1/2" shorter, at minimum preload.
If you measured that length while the shock was off the bike, the fact that you measured it at minimum preload doesn't matter. Your shock is 1/2" shorter and when you get it on the bike, even at max preload, your rear will ride approximately 1" lower. You'll never get that ride height back.
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by zax1150 »

BMW have always had a bit of a problem with their shocks longevity..... [-o<

std routine was to keep the springs & replace the shock with Koni's

Still these days you can get a fairly cost effective deal from hagon since they bought Koni @ least these are rebuildable & have a 2 year warranty
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by sweatmark »

I'm reluctant to give Motorrad enough credit to imagine custom suspension tuning for the Rockster when it was created from the parts bin. This is one of those times when a timely comment about R1150R suspension specs from an actual BMW design/development engineer would be priceless.

Collectively we have the engineering know-how to dial in the Roadster/Rockster suspensions. What we need are solid specs, setup strategy, and aftermarket component options. I suggest we really whoop a$$ on this particular technical issue, for the betterment of the R1150R community.

Whad'ya say?

I can start this mess by getting the spring constants for Roadster and Rockster rear shocks measured. Give me a few weeks.

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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by riceburner »

Ves wrote:
riceburner wrote:Just for everyone's info as well - the R1150R rear shock IS shorter than that fitted to the Rockster - I've just replaced mine (very easy to do. :) ) and will post piccies sometime this weekend. I'd say it's roughly 1/2" shorter, at minimum preload.
If you measured that length while the shock was off the bike, the fact that you measured it at minimum preload doesn't matter. Your shock is 1/2" shorter and when you get it on the bike, even at max preload, your rear will ride approximately 1" lower. You'll never get that ride height back.

Oh, I'm aware of that. :)

Here's a pic of the two shocks (with different part numbers from both BMW and Showa, although I haven't made that terribly clear in the photo).

Image
To view a full size image - click here

Sweatmark: As far as I can see the Rockster has Showa part number BO422, the R1150R Showa part number BO252. Even if BMW gaves them different part numbers, why would Showa use different part numbers for the same shock? I don't buy that the Rockster is a "complete" parts-bin special - there's enough bits and pieces to the bike that are unique, that makes me believe BMW deliberately built the bike the way they did, including suspension that was different to other bikes in the range. I would argue that they were "testing the water" for a streetfighter style bike, but saving costs by making small changes to an existing model (R1150R). Of course the bike that came out of the experiment would be the K1200R. ;) (Given that the Rockster's main failing in terms of a street-fighterstyle bike is it's power output).


These 2 shot show the difference preload makes to length:
1st image: The shock on left (original Rockster shock) is at minimum preload, the other is the R1150R at minimum preload,
Image

2nd shot: Rockster shock hasn't changed or moved - R1150R shock has had preload set to maximum.
Image

I'm not terribly concerned with exactly how perfect the setup is, as long as I can tweak it empirically to suit me. :)
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by Ves »

Hmmmm... I have never heard of a shock free length getting longer when you increase the preload. What does that say, that the spring force is not enough to keep the shock in the full extended position with no preload? Does it have extension bump rubber that is getting compressed? Don't know.

It does have fewer coils, which means it's a stiffer spring.
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by riceburner »

Ves wrote:Hmmmm... I have never heard of a shock free length getting longer when you increase the preload. What does that say, that the spring force is not enough to keep the shock in the full extended position with no preload? Does it have extension bump rubber that is getting compressed? Don't know.

It does have fewer coils, which means it's a stiffer spring.

When you wind up the preload, you can see it compressing the shock - it also seem to push the upper part of the unit up a bit.

All I know is what I see. :)
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by boxermania »

Ves

If one compares (with the entire preload removed) the Rockster shock (white coil) to the R1150R shock four things become apparent:

1) The installed center to center distance is greater on the Rockster, once again with everything else being equal between the two bikes the rear of the Rockster will be higher, sharpening the turn in of the bike (making it a bit sportier)
2) The spring installed length (this is the length of the spring as contained within the shock, without preload) is longer than that of the R1150R
3) There is one more "active" coil (full circumference coils) in the Rockster spring
4) The Rockster coils have a larger diameter

The difference in the coils diameter and the spring length doesn't necessarily mean that the Rockster coil spring has a greater K constant. The only way to find out is to test the springs.

That can be easily accomplished, safely, with the following:

1) Record the installed distance of the springs in the shock before removal
2) Hopefully you have a bathroom scale and a drill press, or have access to one
3) Place the bathroom scale, zeroed, at the bottom of the drill press and place the spring above the scale. Place a piece of scrap metal on top of the spring t have a flat surface for the drill head to push down on the spring. It helps if the drill chuck is removed from the head.
4) Compress the spring to the installed height, note the reading on the scale and set the travel indicator on the drill press to that position.
5) Release the pressure and note, on the drill press travel indicator, how much you need to travel to attain 1" past the installed length
6) Carefully, compress the spring to the installed length, re-check the bathroom scale reading, if it repeats within a pound or so, proceed to compress the spring 1" further and note the bathroom scale reading. Release the pressure on the spring.

Finding the K constant is the easy part as you already have the answer.....subtract the initial weight (force) reading from the final one and that is the answer for K in pounds/I' of travel. Do the same for the other spring and you have your answer. So if the answer is 100 pounds per inch and the bike shock travel is 5 inches you will have 500 pounds of force at max travel.

sweatmark....now you have something to do.....I think I have a set of R shocks that Waycoc donated for an experiment years ago....I’ll go ahead and calculate the K for those, if someone has a set of Rockster springs we can get the answers posted.

I love it when a plan comes together............. :-k :-k
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by boxermania »

riceburner

In answer to your latest post.....no....sorry got to go.
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by riceburner »

boxermania wrote:riceburner

In answer to your latest post.....no....sorry got to go.
:?: :?: :?:

Sorry - I don't get you. :?

Hope I didn't tread on any toes??
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by sweatmark »

Burner-

Great info and pictures. Thanks.

OK - my secret hope is that someone (or sometwo) within BMW Motorrad was inspired to build the Rockster with sporty intent, focused as much on dynamics as the streetfighter look. Whether or not that "hope has wings", my Rockster and I have a long future ahead, just like my wife and her Roadster, and we'll be trying our best to eek out optimal handling from the R1150Rs. Would love to mitigate front tire cupping, and get better (less truck-like) handling when riding two-up.

After Ohlins get installed on Mrs. Sweatmark's Roadster, I could also pull the rear Rock' shock for comparison. What I'd really like to do is have the local sportsbike suspension guy put both shocks on his dyno for analysis. Realize that the Roadster shock has lived a hard life under my flabby butt and loaded System Cases, before my better half and her svelte self started riding the Roady! Still, we could get an answer about any difference in springs...

Let me ask Dave at GP Suspension how much he'll charge me to dyno run the two shock types. He promised to soften compression damping a bit on one of the Buell/Showa fork sets he built for me, so might as well collect some R1150R shock data while at his shop.
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by jfslater98 »

boxermania wrote:I felt compelled to address the issue and hopefully make future selection less complicated.
Thanks to everyone for weighing in on this issue, which has just started to get my attention toward my "aging mount". While looking at aftermarket shocks, one set in particular is touting, for $400 extra per side, "high and low speed
compression damping". My small bit of googling brought up a post in advrider saying that this of value to tinkerers and racers. I am neither, is my $800 better spent on other farkles?
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by riceburner »

jfslater98 wrote:
boxermania wrote:I felt compelled to address the issue and hopefully make future selection less complicated.
Thanks to everyone for weighing in on this issue, which has just started to get my attention toward my "aging mount". While looking at aftermarket shocks, one set in particular is touting, for $400 extra per side, "high and low speed
compression damping". My small bit of googling brought up a post in advrider saying that this of value to tinkerers and racers. I am neither, is my $800 better spent on other farkles?

If you're happy with the way your current shock handles (apart from getting a bit old) then your dollar is better spent elsewhere (imho).
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by duke »

jfslater98 wrote:$400 extra per side
Sweet mother of all spenders ... that money must be burning a hole in your pocket. :mrgreen:

If you are so hell bent on splashing the cash - get a shock with remote preload adjuster if you make too many changes (that should be around ... $200 extra).

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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by Ves »

jfslater98 wrote:
boxermania wrote:I felt compelled to address the issue and hopefully make future selection less complicated.
Thanks to everyone for weighing in on this issue, which has just started to get my attention toward my "aging mount". While looking at aftermarket shocks, one set in particular is touting, for $400 extra per side, "high and low speed
compression damping". My small bit of googling brought up a post in advrider saying that this of value to tinkerers and racers. I am neither, is my $800 better spent on other farkles?
Elsewhere I had started a thread to ask if anyone knew where I could get Rockster shocks with at least compression and rebound on both ends. Hyperpro was the only one who had them. I was kind of surprised that Ohlin's only had rebound adjustments. I subsequently talked to one of the suspension experts at San Jose BMW. The guy said you don't need it. Even on their race bikes they rarely mess with the compression adjustments... set it and forget it for the most part. So, who knows more about BMW suspension setup than SJBMW? Also, just cause you have a lot of adjustments on the shock doesn't mean it's a good shock. So, I made a choice a few days ago... I have a set of Ohlin's on order, from Kyle Racing, for less than I would have paid for a second rate set of shocks with lots of adjustments.
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk.

Post by boxermania »

riceburner

My appologies for the short response as my better half was pulling on my tie to get going for a 50th aniversary party and I had to sign off.

My answer to you pertained to the fact that the pre-load adjustment does not make the shock any shorter or larger as all it does is compress the spring. Whatever movement you might have seen is nothing more than take -up of the slight clearances at both ends, specially if the bike is on the center stand (unloded rear), however if the movement is significant, it might be advisable to check the bolting and the bushings at bothe ends.
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Re: Shocks, shocks and more bunk. [Length Change on Preload]

Post by Ves »

Here's some interesting information hot off the presses. Regarding the issue of the shock getting longer when you crank the preload. Apparently Ohlins and maybe others (BMW?), use a topout spring in some of their shocks (didn't clarify if it's all Ohlins or just some). For those of you not familiar with what that is. It's an internal spring that is compressed when the shock extends. So, when the shock is unloaded and you crank up the preload the shock does actually get longer, because you're not not just compressing the main spring, you're also pushing on the topout spring. And as you do that the shock will grow in length. In fact when Ohlins measure that length of the shock they do it with the topout spring fully compressed.

I knew Ohlins used that concept in their normal telescopic forks and Honda also uses it in their CBR forks. I don't know who else does. But, I had no idea they did that on their shocks.
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