Fuel Canister and Valve

[Eddiem]

Aloha All

Today I finally discovered part of the idling problem with my bike, I did a lentini and TB synch at low and high RPMs, when I have the bike connected directly to the Manometer the bike runs just great.....However when I disconnect the manometer and reconnect the vacuum hoses to the friggin fuel cannister the bike runs bad....

I've done the followiing thus far to trouble shoot...

1-Checked and replaced the vacuum hoses no leaks for sure.
2-Took the canister out and blew in it to make sure it was not clogged.....(was able to blow with my mouth through the 3 inlets) I assume that this is normal unless there is a check valve in there...
3-There is a valve with an Elctrical connection where the T connector and the 2 vac hoses from the TB's connect....When I disconnect this electrical connection to the valve so there is no vacum passing the bike runs good but If I reconnect it...no luck.....
4-I know some of the guys in the forum have removed this can....but I want to be good to the environment and also not risk fire....what's wrong with my canister or valve???

I've disconnected the intake to that valve temporarly until I hear from my friends here, I assume I either have a problem with the fuel canister and or with that darn valve......

Any help on this one as always will be very much appreciated.

Aloha from HOT Hawaii!!

[Eddiem]

Should I remove the fuel canister?? if so where do I connect the hose comming from the tank??? Just to where the canister drain goes to??

Aloha!

EM

[boxermania]

Eddiem

The purpose of the canister is to collect the tank vapors, while the bike is off, and trap them in the activated charcoal. When the bike is on, the solenoid valve routes the tank vapors to both the TB's to get drawn into the combustion chamber.

The drain of the canister is vented downwards, to the ground, by the right side of the center stand and it is there in case the carbon canister gets full of gas, which can happen under various conditions, most of them associated with improperly connected hoses.

It does appear that you have a vacuum leak in the system, plug the TB"s while you the bike and trace the problem out.

Ps. CycleRob posted a diagram of the canister and the hoses.....do a search

[Beemeridian]

44

[Eddiem]

Guys Thanks for your responses, I'm sure I have a Vacum leak but can't find it....It has to be the solenoid....cause all the other hoses are new...I checked the T connector that routes the two hoses from the TB's and it looks Ok.....The problem must be in that solenoid that pushes the gases back to the TB inlets.

Is there a way to test the solenoid valve??? I assume it should only work one way correct???

BTW when I took the canister out there was fuel in it, just a little but there was some...

Aloha

EM

[boxermania]

Eddiem

There are two lines coming from the tank, the one that goes to the charcoal canister is the one that vents the tank, the other one goes directly to ground and is the one that connects the drains the spilled fule, see the little hole on the side of the filler neck, if the tank burps while being filled.

One of the inherent problems with the canister is if when the tank is removed, the hoses are hooked incorrectly, the tank vapors vent to ground and the overspill to the canister....

The solenoid is nothing more than an on/off valve, which is drawing the vapors coming off the tank from the canister during the engine operation and off when the engine is turned off. I would check the integrity of the vacuum lines, preferably with a Mity-Vac where you can pull a vacuum and see if it holds......it's obvious to me that you have a vacuum leak, based on your operational description.

[mcollect]

Help me understand why one can't just connect the two TB's together, with a single hose to solve this problem?

[Sunbeemer]

Aloha Eddiem: If the engine runs ok with solenoid connector unplugged, but not good with the solenoid connector plugged in, that suggests to me that the solenoid is working. I think the ECM actuates this solenoid automatically, but not constantly. i mean, it opens it for a few minutes to purge the charcoal cannister, but I can't remember if its immediately after starting the bike cold, or if it waits until the bike is warmed up and then opens it for a few minutes. I think it is the latter.

It sounds like when it the solenoid opens there is too much air going to the TB's, which may be due to the hoses being swapped. This is quite common when the tank has been removed, and easy to check. Blow on either of the larger rubber hoses behind the right foot peg while holding your finger above the drain hole in the neck of the tank's filler cap. When you feel air coming out, you have found the hose connected to the overflow. it should have no backpressure, and according to the diagram above, should not be going anywhere else. Check the routing to verify that. I've got a feeling you'll find it's connected to the cannister. Then just swap them at the "butt connectors" and see how it works.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

[csalt]

Eddiam,
When I first checked the hoses they were reversed on my bike. Have since done a cannisterectomy. The only reason for the system i.m.o. is when you park the bike in an enclosed place and the gas expands you do not vent to the outside air and stink up the place. I live in south Fl. (hot most of the time) park my bike inside and dont smell gas. Plugged both T.B.'s with a female vacuum plug .removed extra hoses and solenoid, capped the electrical collection, threw the cannister in the trash can.
I have a poster in my bike work space of a B.M.W. Rockster (04) sales photo (authentic B.M.W.)that was taken in N.Y.C. theater district and guess what was not on the bike because it looks ugly? No front fork reflectors either. I did read a post somewhere of somebody gutting the cannister leaving it in place and using it as a secret stash area. At least it has some use.

[boxermania]

mcollect

You are correct, you can run a hose between the two or just do away with the hose altogether and use rubber plugs on the TB's.

[maduko]

Guys Thanks for your responses, I'm sure I have a Vacum leak but can't find it....

I use carb cleaner to trace down induction leaks. But most any aerosol would work (hmmm, maybe I'll try hair spray or Right Guard next time).

Anywho, warm the bike up and spray near the suspect area. If the idle changes you have found a vacuum leak. Using the little tube helps pinpoint the spray into hard-to-reach areas- like checking the throttle shafts or the lines to the electrovalve.

I would also suggest you confirm the lines are still the right way round. If you disconnect them at the platic connectors you should be able to blow freely through one (that's the rain drain) and feel some resistance/blowback on the other (tank vent). Make sure it's the tank vent routed to the carbon trap.

HTH

[Eddiem]

Aloha all and thanks for all the responses....I have the feeling that the hose that goes to the canister and the hose that goes to the overfill side in the tank are backwards...I'll do the Cyclerob test to see....but I'm pretty sure that this is the issue....

Why you may ask....well I had the fuel filter replaced at the dealer a few weeks ago and ever since then the bike does not run well ar Idle...I bet that the hoses are connected backwards explaining why i saw raw fuel in the canister!

I'll check it out tonight and let you all know!

Aloha!

EM

[CycleRob]

I have seen a BMW Service Dept Tech swap-connect the 2 canister vent hose male plastic connectors on XRay28's bike. That may or may not not be your problem. First, lets look at the start of the problem.

You mentioned that the canister had fuel in it. That can only happen if the tank is overfilled and then left to sit. Fully gassing up . . . then parking in the sun (expanding the fuel) can also do it. If so, that fuel will take more time to completely purge from the charcoal granules -AND- the rollover valve inside the tank, metal piping + the hose leading to the canister. That would make the bike run bad with it connected even after you blew air thru the canister to blow the liquid fuel out. It could take a good hour of road time to fully evaporate all the fuel in the canister's charcoal granules. It's very likely you could have a faulty or stuck open rollover valve that isn't sealing off high fueltank fuel levels, like normally occurs from bump induced sloshing. It's a simple, spring loaded white plastic float that closes off the fueltank vapor vent line to the canister if/when liquid fuel starts to submerge it. Here's what it looks like apart. http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/12189875_cFM87-O.jpg

Nearly all the voices here say take the damn thing off and throw it in the trash. I am on many past posts as the lone voice of reason in defense of keeping it. Like these 2 past posts:

1-- I think it's a great system, not for it's GreenPeace tree-hugging attributes, but for it's symbiotic nature while efficiently handling total odor control, expelled fuel vapor recovery and re-use - - - without hurting engine power, driveability or fuel economy. The Motronic trims the fuel injection rate if the charcoal is rich with condensed fuel vapors like a black bike parked in full, day-long Texas Summer Sun would generate. The only power it uses is the miniscule amount to power the solenoid coil. Every USA gas powered car/truck has a similar but more sophisticated system, and we never smell not even a hint of gasoline from our cars . . . do we?

2-- I understand why most riders hate the exposed ugliness of the canister. I've seen car owners remove them because they thought it was a performance/driveability killing emission control !! -but- In reality it is a symbiotic, efficient, fuel vapor control and disposal system that also prevents moisture inhalation that can occur when a "canisterectomy" operation must leave the vent line open. Besides that, YOU PAID for it and it allows smelly gas fumes to be stored until you're cruising down the road when the Motronic allows the engine to slowly burn them at the correct mixture. The minuscule environmentally friendly function it has is a bonus but not a priority to me. It's all about the smell and fueltank moisture isolation. Visually, the bags hide them anyway, so where's the beef? When I found out my new 2002 R1150R had a sophisticated fuel vapor recovery system I was delighted. No more will the bike have to cool off before putting it inside. Just like any car since ~1974.

.

[def38]

Should I remove the fuel canister??
Aloha!

EM

I would recommend not to remove it. CycleRob is correct.

Retain the cannister, reduce VOC emmissions and maintain a safe fuel system. Oh, and remember, it is a federal crime to remove the cannister.

[Sunbeemer]

I don't think it is a federal crime to remove them from a motorcycle, only a car. Maybe in California it's required on motorcycles, then it would be a state crime, but they aren't required on motorcycles anywhere else, yet.

[def38]

If you remove or disable the emmissions equipment on any vehicle certified for on-road use, you are breaking federal law.

[Beemeridian]

55

[Buckster]

When did other manufacturers start putting charcoal cannisters on their bikes?
I was unaware that other bikes have this feature.

[maduko]

I am on many past posts as the lone voice of reason in defense of keeping it.

And then there were two.

I agree, the only thing wrong with the carbon trap is they're ugly. But if that were a crime what would we do with all the Subarus?

[mcollect]

That makes three
I kept the can on as it did no harm, I ride with city cases all the time so it is unnoticed. I even own a Subaru so I don't recognize ugly as being bad. Hey wait a moment I even ride a BEAKSTER